[tempest1964]

Is it possible that the oil pan baffle is rattling?

[Squidward]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Well your eliminating some sources of the noise, so that is good. You could start and run it without a fuel pump and see if the noise changes. (sounds different, goes away or gets louder). That might help you zoom in on the fuel pump drive. if you don't have one, you could make a fuel pump cover out of cardboard for this test. Shouldn't make too much of a mess in 30 seconds.

Personally, I'm a duct tape guy. Lol.

Good mention about cam thrust plate.

[steve25]

Once you posted the photos my thoughts went to the same possible issue as stated in post 20 that the Cam retention plate might be loose.

You should check this possibility out before you fire the motor again because the Cam moving forward and back too much will shorten the life of the lifters and Cam lobe’s.

[sdbob]

Good luck, hope you find this problem.

[HWYSTR455]

I was going to guess fuel pump eccentric, loose/damaged. It looks pretty worn, you may want to pop the cover.

If it's loose, the tab can slip out of pocket and drag, pop could be it coming out of the pocket.


.

[Joe's Garage]

You've eliminated the easy stuff, so dig on in.

Just pull the timing cover off and you should (hopefully) know EXACTLY what the noise is.

Agree with Steve25 that you should not run the engine any more until you rule out that the cam retaining plate has gotten loose. Don't kill your cam and lifters.

It's gonna take you a couple hours and then you'll know if the engine needs to come out or not. Fingers crossed for you.

Less damage = better.

[chiphead]

Spent the last couple of nights pulling the front cover off to get at the timing chain assembly.

The fuel pump eccentric was in place, but high miles and worn. It will be replaced. The cam timing gear bolt was tight, and the retaining plate bolts were tight. I loosened all the rockers to check the endplay before I loosened any of the cam bolts. Not much endplay, hmmmm, the clue phone is ringing.....

Looks like I've got insufficient camshaft endplay. There is a groove worn into the factory retaining plate. I re-used this plate when I slapped the cam in there, but I know I wouldn't have reused a plate with that much wear. The front of the cam shows some metal transfer from the plate. The snout on the cam gear measures .126-.127" and the plate is about .123-.125" depending on how you measure it. So I'm guessing it was on the tight side of spec? What is allowable camshaft endplay?

I'm not saying this is is THE problem, but it's for sure A problem. Can I clean up the cam snout with 400 grit?

I've got new plate, eccentric and bolts coming from Butler. What else do I need to check while I'm in there?

[dataway]

Is it normal for there to be that much forward thrust on the camshaft? Possible it wasn't getting oil?

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by dataway

Is it normal for there to be that much forward thrust on the camshaft? Possible it wasn't getting oil?

My thoughts exactly. That looks a LOT like it's been run dry.

If that was my motor, I'd pull the distributor and use a priming tool and see HOW MUCH oil you get pumped out around the camshaft and that front bearing.

I suspect that you're gonna have to dig in all the way to fix whatever has caused that wear.

Question: How much fore and aft play is there in the camshaft if you re-install the retainer temporarily??

[tstroud]

Could the cam bore block plug be driven in too deep pushing the cam forward?

[steve25]

The rear cam plug can only go in so deep because it stops on a intentional lip machined into the cam tunnel, but this does not mean that when that cam plug was drivin in that it did not mushroom some in its center area.

This would happen if it was driven in with too small of a socket.

Maybe that cam retention plate was installed the wrong way and was blocking off 1/2 of that oil feed hole slot , that is if it’s possible to flip that top to bottom.?

[grivera]

Originally Posted by chiphead

What is allowable camshaft endplay?

I believe the spec is .003-.010

[mgarblik]

All the stuff in your pics shows significant wear. But, IMO, you haven't found the source of the noise you described yet. A light scraping noise is all you would hear from that stuff. At worst a single (tap) when you snap accelerate the engine. Going to have to go in deeper unfortunately.

[chiphead]

I was afraid you'd say that.
It seems that the noise starts after the oil pressure builds.

The rockers clack for a few seconds and then go quiet, and about the same time the noise starts. So it may be related to oil pressure, like the load from the oil pump tries to move the cam forward/backward in the block. It could also be oil pump shaft or oil pump, but I would not expect that to be loudest in the front. It sounds like the lifters are hitting the valley pan, but this is HFT lifters and a stock replacement Butler pan, so there should be no chance of lifter to valley pan contact.

This is an engine of unknown history, it's a '69 400 transplanted into a '67 car. The car was restored in the early 1990s, so I assume the engine was rebuilt about the same time. Looks like a basic stock rebuild with a crane cam. I swapped the cam out for a 2802 because the crane cam was losing a lobe but I caught it early. Even had the stock oil baffles under the valve covers. Engine is very clean inside and has good compression, good oil pressure and runs strong. The only debris I found was some fine glitter in the head's oil returns, so I suspect the engine has been making metal for a long time. TH400 line pressure was VERY high 210PSI+, so I reduced line pressure to take some load off the thrust bearing.

Where does a stock windage tray usually fail? I have an inspection camera, I can snake it in while the cover is off and take a look around. At this point where should I look next?

[OG68]

I found cracks on my full length tray near the area where it was attached to the #2 main cap.

[mgarblik]

On the full length windage trays, the cracks can be anywhere, honestly. But the most common areas are: Where the tray attaches to the #2 and #4 main cap. There is a steel plate spot welded to the tray where the bolts go through. Cracks often radiate outward from the welds and where the pan is bolted. Second area is on the side of the pan where the slots are punched in the tray for oil drainage. Cracks start in the corners of the punched windows and move toward the outside edges. Very much the way a windshield cracks from a rock chip for example. I don't believe the 4/5 short trays have any of these problems because they are thicker material. Possibly a better material as well.

[mgarblik]

I am sorry to mention this now. But did you look at the flex plate/torque converter to see if the bolts were loose, or the flex plate cracked? Either can make noise that mimics a fuel pump or other noise from the front of the engine. It doesn't make sense, but it can. I say this because you said the AT line pressure was excessively high and the noise starts after 15-30 seconds. This is the approximate time it takes the trans pressure to build as well as engine oil pressure. Before you possibly take the engine out, take the converter cover off and check the bolts. Also get your camera up in there and look at the flex plate bolts. When the plate cracks, it will usually leave a rust trail, radiating from the bolt holes. Give that area a look before going too far into the engine.

[OG68]

X2.
I had an unusual noise from the front of my '07 Cadillac. Most noticeable whenever the AC compressor was pumping. Dealership replaced the compressor but discovered that wasn't the cause. A senior mechanic, "the old guy", as my service advisor put it, opened up the inspection cover and discovered a cracked flex plate. Evidently the compressor put a slight load on the crankshaft to enhance the noise.

[steve25]

I gotta sadly say that from look of all the metal removed from the front of your Cam that I doubt that just a new Cam retention plate is going to anything for you .

[chiphead]

If you're talking about the 45* bevel on the OD face of the front cam journal, it came from Summit like that. I've got another 2802 in a box I can compare it to.

Would a windage tray have to be very broken to make this much noise? I should be able to see a badly split windage tray with the camera.

Is is possible to remove the flexplate without pulling the trans? One reason I got a good deal on this car is the converter was loose when I bought it. The knocking sounded bad, but cinching the 3 converter bolts fixed it. Its entirely possible the flexplate is wasted and I didn't catch it.