[Robert C.]

Will be at the Performance Racing Show on 12/9 12/10 12/11

We are in Machinery Row Mazak booth #3731. Frank, Don And I will be exhibiting an IA II motor with a New AllPontiac Tiger DCI Head. AllPontiac.com will be releasing this head soon.

We will be there not only displaying or products but looking for other new products that will benifit the Pontiac faithfull.

If you plan to go, look us up. Maybe we can get a group together for lunch or dinner one night.

Give me a call on my cell. If you like to meet 804-349-0014

[ventura7211]

"There are still people out there convinced the old "double hump" 327 heads are the best small block head around."

Hey lets keep that on the downlow, some of us like getting good money for these heads, lol. Its about the equivalent 670 or 6x head to the pontiac guys.

Bob: Any pics of the new heads your talking about? Did you guys remove the "fins" from the tops of the exhaust ports? I never really cared for those.

Scott: is your avatar a pic of a new car? your car maybe?

Joe: Longest single reply I've ever read.

Rob: good questions

[Mr. P-Body]

I have to agree with Ken. Cudos to Bob and Frank. And to Joe, I can relate! I've been in my own business for 4 years now. It's grown consistently over that time. This doesn't mean I've been building engines for 4 years. More like 30. I worked for others, like Joe. Nobody ever heard of me, either. At least until recently... Jim Hand's book has helped that a bit.

There is the perception that we (all engine builders) make ALL the money, and have gleaming shops like Don Prudhome or Childress Racing. 'Taint so... The point about return-on-investment cannot be overstated. For a project of this magnitude, the profit, if it EVER materializes, will not be as much as people outside the "business" believe it will be.

Scott's questions are all valid, though his tone may take away from the focus of those questions. Not because they're not good, but because people tend to pay more attention to the delivery, than the message. Joe may be a bit defensive in his tone, but again, I can relate.

Ken Keefer said it best in a conversation we had a couple weeks ago, discussing a supercharged deal. "It's amazing how many experts there are in our field, that have never worked in our field". This doesn't mean an ammetuer can't be an expert (Jim Hand, case-in-point). But it does mean, we that do it every day for a living, might have a slight edge... If you (anyone) don't think you can learn from me, you're absolutely right! Not because I don't know what I'm talking about, but because you simply aren't going to listen. I know, myself, I can learn from anyone!

Now you guys play nice!!!

[GTOGEORGE]

Brian has a point! I think it's important to get the middle exhaust valves away from each other. I've aways said someone should make an aluminum high port RAV head! I would be the first one in line.

[Rob]

Ken I have no doubt that there's a lot of people that can build a competitive motor. Joe is likely one of them.

My point is, the DCI head is very close to the Wenz Super Chief(at least the one at Nowalk this year) so you're likely not gonna blow the performance out of the water. Need to stay above 2hp/cid and run faster than Scott -it's a tall order(and 2004 records, no doubt 2005 will find them improved again). We're all finding ourselves moving into classes...Pro Stock, Pro Modified, and 10.5 tire guys are probably going to be the big three.

I'm all for any competent company producing Pontiac cylinder heads, even happy with anyone giving us something close. I think we will all see Bob and Frank take the SC type head past where it is right now and hopefully increase production. The Pontiac is a Tall Deck, Mid-large size bore engine and the lifter bores are set up for inline wedge type heads. We are racing the fastest inline valve cylinder heads in the world. That makes them all resemble wenz superchiefs.

As far as different designs for new pontiac heads, In my opinion the best possible is one that will have the biggest Intake Valve and compareable runner. The canted valve head would require some fancy lifter bores(well maybe not require) and the RAV has pushrods going through the middle of intake ports. Hemi is probably the best design for moving the most Air and Fuel, but block clearance for pushrods and making a valve lift hi and big chamber volume make them less desirable for NA engines.

My post took a long time to type! I Agree with you completely Bob!

-Rob

"Big Valves, Big Lift, and Big Cubes rule all; ok atmospheres and cold O2, but that's not ON MOTOR!"

[Brian Baker]

Well, I either misunderstood Ray or he told a fib.

[mrdan7]

Just like everything else that has taken time to be developed by competent people, those who Race all out, & at all levels, can contribute.

Most of us who can, will eventually run the new DCI's with the IA2. (REMEMBER THIS POST)
Remember all the crap said about the IA2??? before it was ****DEVELOPED****??? I Will Run BOTH, this is what I call a RESPECTABLE-PONTIAC-STREET-MOTOR for my 1st build using this combo, again R & D.!

It's a Great deal for both All-Pontiac, & DCI. Yes everyone & their brother will tweak them for their combo, & CNC Tweak programs will abound. This is good for us all, if we can communicate, instead of fighting, as this Fails to advance we who run Pontiacs. Thats one reason why we have so many independants.I admire those who share information. Certain-Secrets are one thing,(Like-Cam-Specs) help is another.

I have worked for 30 years in R & D Automotive, back when many running today were fighting over whose bicycle was fastest, & have seen & worked on motors & equipment most here would never believe much less understand.(Up to 5 Million dollar, single projects at a crack, yes working for the Big-Boyz). So What! I learned allot at their expense, & got paid for it.

My hats off to the Quickest, JBP,Scott, Bruce,Arnie, and all the others that have helped us win in spite of great dis-advantages. The worst being the fact, Most-Pontiac guys will eat their own children, this is what hampers True Development for us Poncho Guys.
Let's face it we are hooked on Poncho's!

P.S. Not knowing me, is something I like to protect, I don't talk, Name drop individuals, Or judge(no-pun ment)LOL, others, but will share if I can. I have plenty to learn also, so if anyone has Tech info to share, I'm all ears. I have already raised all my Kids through College.I joined this Board to Glean Tech-Info,as well as receive help, and possibly give some where I can.

All Dinosaurs eventually become extinct, but have left behind their oil, I run that OIL IN MY PONTIAC!

<span class="ev_code_RED">MRDAN7 </span>

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Yeah, the torque and the heavy rotating weight plays havoc with the 4-link. We have to run the heavy rods, heavy crank, so combined with the 610 ft-lbs, and 3270 lbs, those 1.29-1.32 60 foots take their toll. (Not to mention stock compression ratio, Cast iron SD heads, and a Q-jet)

WE were beginning to tear a 4-link bracket away. Didnt know it at the time.

Here is a picture if the link works. If it doesnt, then just go to AutoImagery.com and type my name in the search box, then double click on the pictures. You can also see other Super Stock racers like Don Kennedy, Peter Biondo, Steve Smith, John Angeles, Mike McKinney, Kenny Shawver.

US Nationals, Indy 2003

[Ray Cox]

I dont want to say to much and get in trouble with Bob again, but I have heard the price "might" be less than the previous post indicated

[Skip Fix]

Lynn have you tried those springs on any E heads? I guess 7000 rpm on a 455 goes against some Pontiac theories.

[Tom Vaught]

Ideal head would be (Front of engine left side) E-I, E-I, E-I, E-I, with the drivers head).

When you install the head on the passenger side it would be from the front of the engine going to the firewall) I-E, I-E, I-E, I-E.

This puts the chambers in the right spots for the piston locations. Even though the Number #1 cylinder is specified as such on the Pontiac engine on the drivers bank, the actual most forward cylinder is the #2 cylinder on the RIGHT side of the engine. (like a Ford).

George,

You can have your Ram Air V aluminum head today (if you buy a Ford Tunnel Port DOVE ENGINEERING) head and move one head bolt in the head very slightly. All of the head bolts except for one will go right into the Pontiac block.

Mill off the material necessary on the exhaust to have your HIGH PORT exhaust (Ford racers have done that for years), build up the port shape you want, and get your shaft rocker system from T+D.

Once the intake is created (with a blower engine) no one could tell the difference from a Pontiac Ram Air V head either.

Tom V.

[slowbird]

Are there going to be any changes made to the heads if so what? What sizes are offered on the combustion chamber? What is the stock intake runner cc? If you have a head that flows 435cfm now could you post the entire flow sheet. Will you be offer the round port, d-port and the raised exhaust ports like DCI was going to?

[Brian Baker]

It's probably not as low as you think, Ron. If Lynn has taken advantage of all of the "maximum" allowed increases in bore/stroke, and "minimum" allowed decreases in chamber volume, it's probably somewhere in the 9:1 range.

Remember this head performed well from the factory in 73-74 in it's low CR form, so it is not surprising at all to see it run so well in Super Stock trim.

Good show, Lynn.

[Herb Hagan]

Aaron,
That was another aluminum head option I was discussing w/Cliff @ Norwalk. That is why I decided to stick with a PROVEN combo for now and picked up Jack's old top end from Wayne Garrison. Jack has run 8's N/A (tube chassis) and Wayne has run 9's N/A (Back half). The new motor project will be 500+ CID and will definately need a good flowing set of heads.

Herb

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Skip,

The valve springs are awesome, the only trouble is that with 430 lbs of seat pressure, it tends to play havoc on the seats.

With the new super stock open rule for valve seat angles, the regular Pontiacs are going to gain more than the 455SD as we had 45 degree seats already.

Now we are all the way out to 55 degrees which scares me to death on the valve springs. This will make the valve spring issue something to deal with.

If I hold the Super Duty to 7000 in second gear it runs a tenth faster.

For years we thought it was the reciprocating weight and the head flow limiting us. That is all true, but valve springs helped a bunch.

Stacy's SS 6X motor held peak HP to 7200. It is what we refer to instead of the "HP Peak", the "HP Plateau"! It is one of those awesome things that makes the Pontiacs run so good.

Skip are you going to Montgomery next week end?
If everything comes into place, and we can hook the Sunbird up, who knows what might happen? it calculated .19 faster than our test track where it ran a 10.05 @ 131.67

Lynn

[PONTIAC DUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:

Ray Cox is there too, and he wanted Pontiacdude to know that he took Bob and Frank out to dinner last night, and it wasn't a Steak & Shake. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ask Ray what just the drinks cost and 2 were Cokes!!!!!!!!???

I knew were were in trouble when The waiter-D showed us the table. We saw the menu. The dinner without drinks would have cost over $400.00

I'm not paying $90.00 for a Steak Alone at that overpriced Hole in the wall that cost $9.95 at Sizzler. LOL.

Sorry, Lost that Silver spoon when I was born and taint found it yet.

Being the first time in downtown Indy and not knowing where and what. Found Hooter's the next day around te corner.

Besides............. Ray ain't worth a $400.00 dinner.

He's the wrong sex.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Thank you Ron, Brian,

Brian is correct, as we get to bore and stroke. However, the stroke hurts us more than it helps us.

A 455 piston speed at racing conditions causes the engine to "run out of breath". This limits performance.

It does not help us increase actual compression, just theoretical compression ratio.

We definitely need to increase the bore because of the valve shrouding issue, but not because of compression. The cubic inches hurt us more than helps us as the cylinder heads will not support it at 6000 plus RPM. Actually, a 4.00 stroke would make our engines faster as it would slow the piston speed down to a reasonable level for the cylinder heads.

The NHRA rules on the cylinder heads limit us. That is we arent allowed to increase the volume of the intake or exhaust ports. The numbers for the 455SD heads are 188ccs on the intakes, and 182 cc's on the exhaust. What we port out, we have to put back either by welding or adding epoxy with a few minor exceptions.

A low speed street engine cubic inches help, but at race speeds you have to have the head flow to go with it.

A good tech article to read about racing Pontiacs is on the www.wallaceracing.com website about this subject. Arrow down till you see "tech articles"

Lynn

[BVR421]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
FYI the new BOP intake has the spacers cast into it and will be compatable with the head. this will help with the class rules and weight brakes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats the BOP intake that has been promoted for the last two years along with blocks and heads and other products that no one has seen for sale?

"Improved" products are great to talk about and I enjoy the anticipation as much as anyone but when the hype goes on for so long it loses its edge.

ALLPONTIAC is developing a rep for bringing products to the people that might otherwise go away, I applaud them for that and hope they are well rewarded for taking the risk involved. In the mean time lots of checks Are being written for products that actually exist.

[Ray Cox]

Thankyou Bob and Frank for taking another project out of the shadows and helping to bring it to reality
Scott your right sombody needs to prove these heads work, but I would be willing to bet that Frank and Bob will do what it takes to make them work. Im basing that on what they have done with improving and making the block finally availble!

Ventura is so right! as Bob was telling me about the takeover, I was pushing him to get the heads legalized in some classes. he said he is a little busy for that so us racers need to lobby for that and keep bob informed on the rules like the spacers as Ventura did.

FYI the new BOP intake has the spacers cast into it and will be compatable with the head. this will help with the class rules and weight brakes.

these heads would already be legal in some of the classes like S/S S/M & Pro Street the tools are now coming avalible I wonder if all the talkers will step up and put them on some motors , or just keep on taking

[Herb Hagan]

Very well said Jim!

Point being, prove it and we will come (purchase). I am one that intentionally did not purchase new aluminum heads for the coming season due to all the talk about new heads coming to market. If there is a proven head for 500+ CID motors besides the SuperChief's, I will be considering them too for the new motor program. For now, I will gladly run Jack Gaydosh's old RA IV headed top end on the 462.

Hats off to the guy's like Scott, Jack, Jim, Bruce and John who dig deep into their pockets on a lot of unproven products in that elusive search for more power. This is also true with Bob and Frank @ AllPontiacs, who have really stepped up big time for the Pontiac community. It really does help guy's like myself save a lot of heartache, grief and potentially wasted $$$.

Thanks guy's your efforts are appreciated,
Herb