GTO Sales Flop........Detroit News, May 24,04

[glenn bayard]

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Dull Styling, Sale Hobble With GTO



DETROIT - The Pontiac GTO, a pet project of General Motors product czar Robert Lutz, is off to a slow start.

Dealers say the GTO - touted as a halo car for Pontiac - suffers from bland styling, a high sticker price and no incentives.

"The car is more conservative looking than today's customer expects," says dealer Hugh Fiore, owner of Harbor Motors in Old Saybrook, Conn.

So far this year, Pontiac has sold just 2,451 units. Discounting seasonal differences, that amounts to an annualized rate of 7,300 units - well below Pontiac's 16,000-unit target. GM has a 168-day supply of GTOs, well above the 60-day supply that is considered ideal. A December launch slowed sales of the Australian-built car, says Pontiac spokesman Jim Hopson. "Winter probably isn't the best time to launch a rear-wheel-drive vehicle," he says. "However, we're already beginning to see sales pick up with the nice weather."

Pontiac sold 719 GTOs in March and 650 in April.

GM launched an advertising campaign for the GTO in November. Pontiac hopes the USA Network cable TV movie The Last Ride will help spread the word. The movie features the GTO.

Lutz, vice chairman for product development, pushed the Australian car to the United States with only minor changes.

GM engineers reworked the Holden Monaro, giving it left-hand drive and a Pontiac front end. The V-8 received 48 more horsepower, for a total of 350 hp. The exterior received a new front fascia and a spoiler.

Lutz praised the car's "brawny, muscular stance." But many enthusiasts say the reborn GTO lacks the in-your-face styling of the original muscle car, fondly nicknamed the Goat.

Not enough pizazz

"When you come back with a name like GTO, you need something more," says one Detroit area sales manager who declined to be named.

Last week at a press event in Detroit, Kip Wasenko, director of design for GM's performance division, said, "You heard me talking about heritage. That's probably one of the things the GTO could probably use a little more of. But other people find it quiet and reserved because not everyone wants in-your-face, look-at-me kind of style."

[ChiefIronHorse]

And what #'s are you refering too? I'm sure you've been on the street corners taking a poll on the GTO.

[Nickv]

Personally I find the G35 to be quite boring in it's styling. 4 doors don't cut with me. All the cars I've ever owned in my lifetime were 2 door coupes with the exception of my first car, 1956 Olds 98 and my 2002 Mitsu Galant DTZ, which I traded in to get my 04 GTO.

[455HOGT37]

Don't look now Nick, but you bias is showing through (again). So it's perfectly ok to call someone like me a POS, or ignorant as in previous posts, right? Anyway, as I never mentioned or even inferred someone in particular as an idiot, I figured a few would self-identify. I'm shocked you fell for it.

No, the car is certainly just a machine. When I say die, I mean as a product - like the T-bird. BTW, how many T-birds vs Holdens do you see on the road?

Anyway, it's too bad many of you can't feel good about taking a good product and making it great. It's as if the mere possibility of wanting more from the car will somehow trigger GM to confiscate your cars in the middle of the night as punishment for disloyalty. For the life of me I can't figure out your rabid, cult like devotion to this thing. Hell, I like my Yukon, and I'll buy another one, but I am certainly not above pointing out its flaws in the hopes that the next one will be better.

Soon enough we'll all know if the "cult" can keep the "GTO" a viable product alone, or if we do need the soccer moms and BMW buyers. Good luck.

[455HOGT37]

Some of you people are cutting your own throats if you truly love the Holden import. Only a handfull of you think the "GTO" is perfect, then a few more liked it just enough to buy it, and one or two will buy when the prices get slashed this summer... that pretty much wraps up the "demonstrated" market for the car. Do you think you can float this boat all alone? Face it guys, this car should have had wide appeal... calling it a niche car after it starts to slip in sales is a cop-out. Besides, Ferrari makes niche cars work, not Pontiac. Those of you who revel in the novelty of having such a "rare" car apparently don't understand that the stockholders likely arent as happy about that situation... and they are the ones in charge in the end.

Those of you who think the car is perfect have it good. Be happy with that. What you need to do now is shut your collective pie holes when others, who are not yet convinced, demand more from GM. You have everything to gain and nothing to loose. Unless your goal is to have the only one on the block, then you will see the car die on the vine. Will you be happy then?

There is nothing wrong with demanding more of a company and this is a great place to do it. However, if a handfull of you idiots think you can support the line all by your lonesome, you will surely kill a great product.

[glenn bayard]

You are righ about the cramped headroom in the g35 coupe.....my #1 complaint, plus for 05 it will get a much deserved interior. That is the VERY reason why I wanted to love/buy the 05 GTO........just can't get past a few of it's shortcomings, ALL of which Pontiac could and should have addressed,like side air bags (Monaro has them), I love my family to much to forfeit this important safety feature (I'm a engineer, seen lots and lots of messy auto accidents). Just one point though, I LOVED the way the Rx8 LOOKS, but it is indeed clostrphobic at 6 2, head room in front doesn't exist, engine is very problemeatic ie 14 MPG, overheats///Mazda suggests running it for 3 mins before a hot shut off, consumes 1 qt oil every 500 miles.......actually Mazda recommend oil ck each and every gas fill up. BUT I do love the classy interor, cheeky exterior, kind of like eye candy but not at all a good/practicle car. I am happy you are plsd with your GTO , a truly wonderful daily driver with a sound to kill for ( I could very easily buy the 05 GTO if I hear it's rumble.........something to love each and every time one stops at a light). Again, enjoy your great car!! Glenn<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nickv:
Personally I find the G35 to be quite boring in it's styling. 4 doors don't cut with me. All the cars I've ever owned in my lifetime were 2 door coupes with the exception of my first car, 1956 Olds 98 and my 2002 Mitsu Galant DTZ, which I traded in to get my 04 GTO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[455HOGT37]

Glenn,

Your attempt at a rational discussion of this car will not be tolerated if you can not be completely positive in your review. Any detail that you can find that might prevent you from purchasing this "wonder from down under" is insignificant and proves you are stupid. Lutz has given you the car he says you want, so who the hell do you think you are to ask questions?

For the record, I think your comments on the car are right on the money. It is no wonder that I also chose not to return the salesmans calls after my test drive.

I am happy you owners love your new toys, but it is hardly a surprise... How many of you would admit you spent too much money on a car you hate anyway? The latest T-bird owners are still happy with their cars too, I'll bet.

There might be one or two of you lovers out there with some class, but many of you are simply pathetic. You have a total inability to discuss the mere possibility that this thing has some shortcomings. So, in order not to damage you frail egos: "Bob Lutz is a god, and the Holden is the finest automotive creation of all time and forevermore."

Do you feel beter now?

[svede1212]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by glenn bayard:
PS.........you are the ONLY one that really 'get's it'. One must remember that virtually ALL members on this website are those that bought the GTO ie naturally biased, not objective. What they apparently are blind to is that appeal/competitiveness/attractiveness/desirability ARE all measured in sales, given similar price points. Your point of their 'beating their own drum for naught' is also right on. However, Pontiac management are idiots, keep on producing ugly/uncompetitive cars. QUOTE]

that quote's a joke. about half the posts are GTO bashing. this is probably the most negative '04 GTO site on the net.

[455HOGT37]

GM is not in my portfolio, how about you Glenn? I'm not all that conservative as an investor, I'm just far from convinced the GM brass has a clue. If Lutz's handling of the GTO import is indicative of his total decision making process (my only performance indicator), then I will not likely buy stock.

For the record, and most people seem to miss this, I don't think the Holden is a bad car by any means. For me, it is just not good enough to justify 35k. Hell, I'm almost a fan of the car despite being a non-buyer, and I get the sense that Glenn is in the same boat. You all should be glad we are here. We take the time to post and hopefully start usefull discussion about the car and the company future (Of course many of you owners seem to take any critical opinions about the car like a direct shot to the heart). Bottom line: Glenn and I post looking to make Pontiac better. Tens of thousands of others just buy G35s.

[HUMBLER]

Go back and re-read your fist post in this thread and you expect objectivity?

The problem is what you imply or not is always hard to interpret in a post, hence most just putting their own spin on comments made. Very hard for all to know exactly where anyone is coming from.

Go post a negative GTO article from the 60's in the Lobby and see where you get...

[svede1212]

he has a "fabulous BMW". i'm glad he doesn't have a GTO and hope he doesn't get one. i think glenn that you'll find the people who connect with this car don't "connect" with you. have a nice day :~)

[455HOGT37]

OK, I'll bite... Can you attribute the upswing in sales to the Holden import, or perhaps the industry-wide, record low interest rates that GM instituted a couple of years ago?

I don't know about your part of the country, but around here, nobody even knows the car exists. Kind of hard to use it as a marketing tool if nobody knows about it, don't you think?

My office peers, almost without exception, purchase cars in this price range (35k +). Do you know how many talk about going over to Pontiac to check out what they have? I'm not aware of one single person. I certainly hear a lot about BMW, Mustang, and the latest "hot ticket": The Dodge Magnum RT (I sat in one today as a matter of fact). Mind you, I have no facts to validate the Holden as a "halo" car, but it seems nobody around here
gives a damn about it.

[glenn bayard]

Thanks for your understanding ie you and I are not alone, as my subsequent note speaks to......it's the people that walk out of the Pontiac showrooms in record numbers that never is heard of at this website, only in the monthly sales figures of depressing GTo sales while the competion is expreiencing record sales....and to boot, the likes of a RX8, G35 coupe has 0 history, no legacy, no pent up demand, simply a superior competitive product in countless ways...........I still would love an improved GT0 ie I will buy a 05 GTO if several of these changes are implemented......nuff said on this subject.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
Humbler-

I'll ignore history and pretend you actually want to know why I did not buy after the test drive. I'll go as far as saying the car just didn't turn my crank. Beyond that, I'll tell you to dig into the archives and read it for yourself, because back then I cared enough about the car to discuss it point for point.

Since the 04 is not in my future unless we see some deep discounts (which is getting more and more likely), I thought I would do my part to point out how badly you treat other Pontiac people at times. Mr. Bayard posted a mostly glowing report of the car, along with the items that HE deemed important to him. I read it with interest because they mirror my own impressions. I guess I should not have been too shocked when some of you tore him apart. I can certainly see that kind of passion for political and religious topics... but all that venom for a silly machine! Come on people, it is a frigging product anyone can buy at the store, like a dishwasher!

SO... To answer Horsey:

Read my post again without the attitude. It is good you like your car. It would be a shame for you to spend all that money just to prove a point. The thing to remember though, is that just because my priorities differ from yours and I decided NOT to buy, that does not diminish your experience. You should continue to be happy with your purchase despite what other people think. I am certainly not putting anyone down, nor trying to change anyones mind, just because they bought a Holden. By the same token, YOUR priorities should not be thrust onto others as justification for a purchase. For example, the 0-60 times are often compared with other brands and the Holden is often a clear winner. That argument doesn't work with someone who holds other virtues MORE desireable. Personaly, I would be willing to give up 25 HP for a bigger trunk and faster seats. Does this make me wrong... No, but it does make me a financially qualified, yet non-buyer of the Holden this year.

I'm hoping Lutz gets his act together for 05. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[glenn bayard]

PS.........you are the ONLY one that really 'get's it'. One must remember that virtually ALL members on this website are those that bought the GTO ie naturally biased, not objective. What they apparently are blind to is that appeal/competitiveness/attractiveness/desirability ARE all measured in sales, given similar price points. Your point of their 'beating their own drum for naught' is also right on. However, Pontiac management are idiots, keep on producing ugly/uncompetitive cars. However, with the Holden Monaro they had a WONDERFUL opportunity to enhance about 10 features, cost effectively, and enjoy robust sales. What did they do? Made about 10 changes, every damn one of them WRONG ie ugly wheel, ugly front end,deleted critical features like side air bags, optional sun roof, the list goes on and on.In a word Pontiac management are incompetent fools, should be fired. These are just another management team that brought you the homely/uncompetitve Grand Am, Aztec, the Korean Tempest...........even the Vibe is selling at 59% of the virtually exact Toyota Matrix.......why??? because few people can trust Pontiac to do anything right, and they would be right. Somehow the members on this site take objective criticism as personal, and it's NOTHING at all like that. And for your general information we own a gorgeous BMW 330 coupe and a 68 GTO............love both of them.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
Some of you people are cutting your own throats if you truly love the Holden import. Only a handfull of you think the "GTO" is perfect, then a few more liked it just enough to buy it, and one or two will buy when the prices get slashed this summer... that pretty much wraps up the "demonstrated" market for the car. Do you think you can float this boat all alone? Face it guys, this car should have had wide appeal... calling it a niche car after it starts to slip in sales is a cop-out. Besides, Ferrari makes niche cars work, not Pontiac. Those of you who revel in the novelty of having such a "rare" car apparently don't understand that the stockholders likely arent as happy about that situation... and they are the ones in charge in the end.

Those of you who think the car is perfect have it good. Be happy with that. What you need to do now is shut your collective pie holes when others, who are not yet convinced, demand more from GM. You have everything to gain and nothing to loose. Unless your goal is to have the only one on the block, then you will see the car die on the vine. Will you be happy then?

There is nothing wrong with demanding more of a company and this is a great place to do it. However, if a handfull of you idiots think you can support the line all by your lonesome, you will surely kill a great product. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[HUMBLER]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
Humbler-

"...point out how badly you treat other Pontiac people at times..."

Reading this again, it looks as though this comment was directed at you in particular. That was not my intent and I apologize. It was intended to apply to a large group of "you people"... Whoever you are. Just an observation... with poor paragraph structure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha, regardless, still have questions about your statement.

"we people" have a hard time understanding "you people" who have such contempt for a car that is, without question, the best thing that has come from Pontiac in a long while. If the GXP had beat it to production, I'd say you have an argument. How anyone can say they'd rather be driving a Grand Am, Grand Prix, Bonneville (non GXP), Vibe or Montana is way beyond me. I get all the GTO heritage issues but for a "Pontiac guy" it's the best thing going. I also understand the concept that Pontiac died 20 years ago or whatever but then again that is the difference between a Classic Pontiac and Pontiac guy.

[Bunz53]

Jees Loius fellas, Relax. It's just a stupid car. This is why I don't talk to my father in law about cars. He's a die hard Ford guy, and anything else is a POS to him. My old man once told me "never love something that can't love you back" That is what a car is. It can't love you back. Nothing wrong with having an opinion, but we're not talking about people's mothers here. Drink a beer or whatever you do to relax, and appreciate the fact that we get to discuss things that we care about.

[glenn bayard]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GTO 4MA:
Got a call from PMD today (no kidding)asking how I liked my '04 Yellow Jacket and how PMD could improve future models.

I responded that I had some real issues with the car - it had way more acceleration than I expected, cornered like it was on rails, solid as a rock,get all kinds of "cool car babe" from onlookers, and too many people back down at traffic lights - as far as improvements go, hood scoops, maybe a judge option with LS2, although the LS1 version in the current GTO has the latest and greatest heads and throttle body and is probably only 20 HP differential with the LS-6.

As far as your BMW is concerned Mr. Bayard, we defeated the Germans in 1945 and PMD defeated them in 2004. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[charlzm]

Okay, so we can all agree that GM hasn't handled the marketing of this car properly if it hasn't sold as well as they thought it would. Can we move on, now?

For my money, it sounds like they are doing to the '05 from the factory what I had been thinking of doing to an '04 with aftermarket parts. I'm sold!

I'm curious to see how the Solstice fares when it's released. A $20k roadster with reasonable performance? I'll bet it will be about two days after street date before the first one is sporting an aftermarket turbo and about 1 model year before GM ups the HP with their "X" version.

One more thing to ponder: on "halo" cars, don't automakers generally lose money or barely break even?

[Goathead]

I assure you that for every GTO hater out there, there are 3 that like the GTO

Well, good theory, but the #'s seem to indicate the exact opposite...

[AnthonyHSV]

Svede you make a good point..

The GTO is supposed to be the Pontiac "Halo" Car...its brings ppl in..they can't afford it..good salesman then talks them into Grand-Am or whatever..

As you say job done..