Then and Now

[projectfolly]

I apologize in advance for rambling. For what its worth, I just thought I would weigh in on the '04 GTO issue. First, I own a '69 Judge, and a yellow '04. To me, its pretty cool to open the garage door and see them sitting next to each other. I grew up in a GM family, my Father, Uncles & Grandfather all worked for GM, most of them at Pontiac Motors when there was such a thing as divisional autonomy within GM. So to say I like Pontiacs is a understatement. Anyway, after reading all the comments about the styling of the new GTO in particular the comment that they look like a Cavalier or a lot of other cars on the road, I tended to agree. It then occured to me that when I was a kid, and the "classic" GTOs we know an love were driven as real every day cars, I remember that the GTO looked an awful lot like another entry level GM car called the Tempest. In fact I had to look fairly close at the Pontiac A bodies to discern if it was a GTO or a Tempest or a LeMans, especially the earlier cars. In fact the overall shape of the car was very similar to other makes on the road at the time, so they blended in to the automotive landscape of the time quite well. It seems that most people rember only the GTO and not the rest of the A body line that suported it. The A body 4 door wagons, Tempest, LeMans carried the GTO as the GTO did not stand on its own. When I drive my Judge in todays traffic it stands out from all the other cars as should any car that is 35 years old. When I drive my new GTO, yes it belnds in but I do get lots of positive comments and interestingly enough from kids. This may have something to do with the fact that its yellow and stands out in terms of color alone.
I applaud Lutz for spearheading the Manaro to the states as the GTO. It is a great car, and it is a great car to live with on a daily basis and I'm happy that Pontiac actually has a V8 rear wheel drive 4 passenger coupe. Lutz understood that with the demise of the F car, Pontiac really had nothing left in the lineup that could maintian Pontiac's performance image. While I would like to see the GTO styling as more retro to the original in the same sense that the new Mustang is, without the GTO, Pontiac would be another boring front wheel drive division of GM with only body cladding and red lit intstrument clusters to set their cars apart from the other divisions.

[pont3]

Well, Dragncar, 14000 people disagree with you and think the new GTO is anything but a joke. You will probably never understand but the only problem with sales of the GTO is price. There are many who would love to own the GTO but simply cannot afford it. Yes, incentives in December contributed to additional sales but even then they were still beyond the reach of many potential buyers. Additionally, Christmas gifts for kids and family took priority over impulsive car purchases. Many buyers simply could not qualify for the $5500 bonus for using GMAC Financing. But your continued bashing of the car will not matter one iota to GM. The Mustang, admittedly, is a good looking car but still will not appeal to the majority of the car buying market. It appeals now because it is new and rarely seen. Once it becomes the norm it will be like any other car out there. It will never possess the mystique of owning a GTO. If you visit other forums you will find that this forum is where the new GTO is hated most. Even the mustang forum has people who prefer the GTO over the Mustang. If you wish to live in your dream world and refuse to acknowledge that no division, other than Cadillac, has exclusive engines, that is your right. No current Pontiac has an engine that is not shared across General Motors' product line. GM had hoped it would capture the interest of enthusiasts who grew up during the Musclecar era and although it didn't capture many, it captured some. The bottom line is that even if the styling were different and actually appealed to a different demographic, complaints would still be lodged because of price. Just ask any OWNER of an '04 GTO if he/she regrets their purchase.

[David Jones]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't really morph the above statement by GM from GM's own web site into anything about a Cadillac. I'm not using logic here, that would be a waste of time. Posted a quote from GM. You're supplying the changes.

[3 Deuce 64]

not really when I was in high school I had 2 cars a 57 ford 2 dr hdt with 25 k on it when I purchased it and a 56 Thunderbird with 32k on it the 57 was my driver built it wrecked it fixed it put well over 100miles on it . Poor old car sits up on the hill still . On the other hand the 56 Bird sits out in the garage with 50 k on it .it only went with the hard top off and not very often in rain unless we were cought out . where I'm from we drive what are called winter beaters we drive them in the slop salt and so on all the Good cars ols and new are put up and if I owned a 04 otg it would be too If it is so special treat it that way

[The Champ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KVman389:
Lets see, the LS1 is a 350cid engine. Who creared the 350, Chevy or GM? After all, the 350 is what, about 40 years old? As far as interchangable parts, evolution has taken care of that; and please, there are resources other than gm.com, though probably not as biased so you would not accept their information as factual. Please, no questions, (as is your style), look them up yourself. The 350 may be technically a GM motor, but you must admit, it is generally considered a Chevy motor. Thank you for your time, and have a good day <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kvman: You'll need to look it up for him. Mr_GTO doesn't know how to use a search engine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whatzit

You're embarrassing yourself by resurrecting KVman's post.

Mr. GTO has forgotten more about cars than you'll ever know, and he actually maneuvers around the internet pretty well too.

KVman says the LS1 is a 350. Well it's not a 350, its a 5.7 liter which is a little smaller than that...

Pontiac was building a 347 back in the 50's and Chevy had a 348, both of which are closer to 5.7 liters.

But the crank from either the 347 or the 348 won't work in the LS1 because the LS1 is designed from a fresh sheet of paper.

As a matter of fact, the crank from the 348 won't even work in a SBC, because it isn't a SBC.

Maybe you should just stop posting instead of digging deeper holes...

[Goat luver]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
I will be short and sweet today.The 04gto is not selling well because there are to many guys like me out there who see right through Pontiacs present day farce.It is ugly and does not deserve the name GTO.It has a Chevy motor and does not deserve the name GTO.It is just some car that GM slapped the name GTO all over it.A fine car but it does not matter how fine of a car it is if you have to become a giant fake and fraud to get there.Chevy guy friends of mine do not think of it as a real GTO.If it was I would be first in line to buy one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah, Yeah, whatever you say Mr LS1 expert

[NaOH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dragncar:
Do not ever"comment ever again on any Pontiac model".Mr-GTO if I were to do that I would deprive myself the satisfaction of getting under the skin of all of you sellouts who think of the 04 as a real GTO.Thought about buying the SAE paper but all I had to do was pay attention to magazines,since I am a real Pontiac fan I usually bypass Chevy LS this LS that stuff and go right to the real Pontiac stuff.I pay attention now that I am on this thread talking to all of the sellouts.Found out all that I have to know.Looking at the exaust side of the head,It is a small block chebby.If the sbs was never invented the LS1 would not be in existence.That is a fact.LS1 is a fine motor with a lot of improvments but it is a chebby, and not a Pontiac.I took a look at the LSI in Popular Hot Roddings Engine Masters.They describe it as"Chevys LS1"."The gen 3 small-block is generally refered to as the LS1,primarily because that was its code when it was introduced in the 97 Corvette.""Just like any other small-block Chevy,you need to align the dot on the cam gear with the one on the crankshaft gear before removing the cam."All of these are quotes out the article.If any of you think the LS1 is anything other than GMs latest high tec wiz bang version of the venerable small block Chevy you are well ....stupid or ..ignorant or just a cool aid drinking take what is shoved down our throats wanabes.Here is what you 04 gto guys do.Take your cars down to the strip,it will be fun you know bang some gears burn some rubber.And complete the look of the rice burner with a 4 foot aluminum wing,slap a vertical row of gauges up in your left corner and do not forget the Nitto tires.Then go hang out with all of the Pontiac guys.See how your car is treated.Thing is some guys will not have a problem with it,might even think it is kind of cool.Some guys might not care one way or the other,take it or leave it.And then there are the hard core guys.They will hate on it,will not accept it.Some of the big dogs in the Pontiac word call the 04 a mistake,that is just the way it is.I am not one of them just a self addmited 04 gto hater.And I have not said anything realy inflammatory yet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I lol'ed.

[Mr_GTO]

Feel free to post a pic of that 70 GTO you claim to own.

What's the VIN on that again? Just want to make sure you weren't taken for a ride. Lots of fake cars out there and people taking people for their money everyday.

But that wouldn't happen to you right? You are the end all be all of Pontiac GTO knowledge correct?

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

Last time I checked, it only matters if PONTIAC says it is a GTO. They do, it matches and BEATS EVERYTHING the old one did in EVERY aspect, so I do too. If you don't, then you are the one in denial.

Please find me where GM calls it a CHEVROLET V8. Not magazines. magazines don't make the codes for the motors and they don't designate anything. The last PONTIAC was made in 1981, get over it.

why would GM call the LS1 a chevy engine when they put them in both chevy and pontiac? isnt the LS1 in the CTS-V as well? i forgot. but if so then thats 3 car makes that 1 engine is in. GM has to make all of these customers happy. so they call it a "GM" (chevy) engine. the only thing pontiac about the new gto is the badge. id hope afer 30+ years they can make it faster then the origional but still slower then imports. way to go GM. and at a price of $35,000 thats even better.

[David Jones]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You must have missed the beginning....

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:


remember when pontiac was forced to use the chevy 350's statring in the 80's ? those engines evolved into the LT1 then the LS1 now the LS2. what other GM camaker was using these 350's ? buick? caddy? oldsmobile? as i remember it was a chevy engine and pontiac was forced into using the motor. pontiac didnt choose to use it. wasnt their motor. so thats why it is a chevy motor. this dosent sound of a hard concept to understand. might be tough for some of us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Tell me, what parts of the LS1 is shared with the LT1 or SBC? Please show me a link from http://www.GM.com where it says the LS1 is a "Chevrolet" motor. PLEASE. I'll be waiting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

can you tell me what car the origional LT1 was put into? a camaro. who makes the slowmaro? you should know that the LT1 evolved into the LS1 which evolved into the LS2.

heres a link for ya

http://www.nastyz28.com/camaro/z28lt1.html ( slowmaro link )

heres another
http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicl.../70vette.frame ( corvette link )

i could go on and on but its obvious you cant admit that the LT1 is a "GM" engine.

heres a lonk for ya about the LS1

http://www.gm.com/company/racing/tec...orvetteC5R.htm

as you were saying.......

[projectfolly]

Quote: how many other muscle cars on the road in 69 had hideaway headlights? now the only thing youre buying is a badge.[/QUOTE]

Off the top of my head,I can think of a few other cars built in in the late 60's that had hideaway headlights:

Chevrolet RS Camaro
Chevrolet Caprice
Cadillac Eldorado
Buick Rivera
Olds Toronado
Corvette
Ford Galaxy/LTDs
Ford Thunderbird
Ford Torino
Lincoln Continental
Mercury Cougar
Full Size Mercurys
Dodge Charger
Plymouth Superbird

There may be others I'm missing.

[3 Deuce 64]

your comment brought a new light to the subject you are correct in saying theold GTO s blended in and I am guilty of saying the new ones look like a cavalier only I said a pregnate one and I mailed that info to corporate I said they totally missed the market as far as I was concerned and many of those who own and have owned GTOs I have had 25- 30 over the past 30 + years at one time I had 19 sitting here not bragging just a die hard GTO nut when the rumor hit the gossip networks I was excited than the mock up projection now that was a car nice looks diferent and special then I heard they were out stopped by the local dealer to see if they had any in Your standing next to it I was and I didn't even know it that was last year early summer I drove that car yesterday it is still on the dealers lot . they offered it to me for what they said was their cost 8500.00 off sticker . I have still along with a couple other a very nice and original 64 tri power 4 speed convert gren red black gut perfect combo I am proud of that car of all the goats I have or had she's my pride and joy and have owned her 28 years . so that said comparing all the gtos I have and have driven to my drive in the o4 I drove yesterday it was an auto brand new 130miles on it .It was stiff in ride and stering the seat felt comfortable but after my 15 to 20 min ride my legs were numb and it was hard for me to get out of the dash was nice to look at and very user friendly but I perfer the dash and fit and ride I have in my XR7 which runs darn good with the V8 in it .back on track after we got the 04 up to temp I asked the saleman the dealers owner son if I could push it he said that's what we are here for I have a favorite ramp in our area it starts out as a mild loop and then opens up to a very nice straight long shot to the 4 lane did the approach the same as I have done many times before about 25 mph and nailed it it has good pick set you back in the seat a bit all through the power range but i dropped it off at 90 mph because we were at the merge lane heres the other with my 64 trip car the same situation 105 mph time and again and I'm breaking hard to merge that's the facts . I wanted to have an 04 to park next to the 64 s I have 67 s and 68 but after yesterdays drive I would take the 24,000 they offered to sell it to me for and go buy another Real GTO maybe in a few years when the price drops down more because no one wants them I may pic one up just for the 64 -04 reason 40 years later but in all honesty I perfer the old ones flat out all cards on the table they are a better investment for the $$$ That's this mans thoughts One more thing I put in my last letter to corporate if they retroed the look to the 656667 yeras the 67 being the most popular body ever per surveys and do what Ford did with the stangs they would have a market killer even I would go for that but until then I'll drive the old ones but the new ones comming out brought attention to the old ones it's neat in the parades to see these younger kids pointing and excitingly saying there's a GTO cool car dude before the new ones came back out that wasn't happening

[The Champ]

Jon

Was the Buick a V8? I don't believe it was.

But I should have clarified that I was referring to the OHV V8.

And managing WI operations for a cell phone company, I hope that you carry one at all times...

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

i have nothign against the LS1. i perfer the LT1 over it because my roomie blew the he** out of a 98 SS and he got a 97 T/A and we tried to blow the LT1 and we couldnt blow it up. but with all the hype about it and it only does 13.3-6 (mag articles i havent seen one run in person) for the 04. 05 gets 50 hp boost to 400 and its supposed to do 13.1. yeah lets slap a pontiac badge on that and call it a GTO. hell i bet if you took a stock T/A or SS and put a power programer on it and get some better tires you coudl do that if not more.

[Mr_GTO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
what makes the 04 a pontiac? the body? nope try again. thats australlian. the engine? wrong answer. thats a chevy. what DOES make it a pontiac? thats what id like to know. childish answers like because pontiac says so dont cut it.

why drive something that the front end looks more like a VW bug then a muscle car? or that looks like a cavalier,GTP,neon,any other car on the road.how many other muscle cars on the road in 69 had hideaway headlights? how many had the hood scoops? how many had a simmilar front bumper/grill? how many had the rear marker lights like my 69? mopar?chevy?ford?who? now the only thing youre buying is a badge. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, kid, the engine isn't a Chevy. Do you have ADD or something like that? Christ. The body is PONTIAC since Holden, for 2004, used a slightly different design. And if you didn't know that then you are not educated enough on the car. Uh, last time I checked, Pontiac was still a division of GM is it not?

The front of the GTO looks like a bug? Ahhh, I see your problem, you're blind. Funny, almost like revisioninst history. I used to drive my 66 GTO to high school and on more than one occasion was told "Nice Chevelle" and basically the cars back then all looked the same, square. And yes, many had hood scoops and some had hide away headlights, remember they were an OPTION on the GTO.

[RandyW]

WEll I think the '04-'05 makes a lot of sense. I plan to drive a few and decide if I want one.

[carbking]

Champ - yes I was aware of the 346 Caddy being available in 1936 (it used a Stromberg EE-25 carburetor with an experimental electric choke), my database of USA produced models and vehicles is now more than 60,000 records. However, with all the "interesting dialogue" written on this forum, the reference to the tank (which is correct) seemed appropriate.

If you are serious about the ancestor of the LS-1 being the Cadillac 331 rather than the bowtie, then I have much more respect for the LS-1, as the 331 Cadillac was a very respected engine. Sydney Allard used then (along with Lincoln) in his Allard sports racing cars. We have done many multiple carburetor set-ups for the old 331. The first available (to my knowledge) was a dual deuce manifold available from Detroit Engineering about 1949. It used two of the stock two-barrel Carter carburetors from 1949.

Again, if true, this would remove 1 of my major objections to the Holden SS. While I mildly disagree with some of the "ramblings" of dragncar, I quite agree with his comments about putting a bowtie engine in ANY vehicle called GTO. Chevrolet Division is probably responsible for killing the real Pontiac V-8 (if you can't beat the competition, eliminate it). Using a bowtie engine in a vehicle with the name of Pontiac's performance flagship (even if it isn't) smacks of heresy!

One thing I would be interested in learning, and some of the individuals on these forums have the information available: what impact has the Holden SS had on Pontiac's overall sales performance in 2004 vs other manufacturers? In other words, did Pontiac have an overall sales performance increase or decrease? is this increase or decrease similiar or dissimiliar to their 2003 performance? how does their increase or decrease percentage-wise compare to Chevrolet and Buick? I had guessed when the Holden SS came out that the heresy of the Holden SS would have ticked off enough loyal Pontiac buyers to have made a significant difference in other sales. Of course the demise of Oldsmobile will create sales for the other divisions, which is why I would like to see the percentages.

I do not know where to look for this information, but am very interested.

And for those of you who like the car, I have no negative comments about the Holden SS other than the name, which should NEVER have been allowed to happen.

Jon.

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Champ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carbking:
Rabon - if you are going to use this line of evolution, then the LS1 must be derived from Cadillac which sold a 346 CID V-8 engine to the military in 1944....................FOR A TANK! At least IT had a carburetor!

To take this further, Oakland had a V-8 346 CID in 1916; but they were not the first. I will leave the additional research on this family tree to whomever should be interested.

Oh, and the 347 was a Pontiac block, not a small block.

Jon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jon

That 346 CI Caddy motor had been in use since 1936...

http://www.roberts.ezpublishing.com/rarmory/M5fig5.jpg

And of course, it was a flathead V8.

The true predecessor of the LS1 is the 331 CI (5.4L) Kettering OHV V8 introduced by Cadillac in 1949.

And the factory color of the 331 is blue...

In 1914, Cadillac was secretly working on the first mass-produced V8 engine that for ever would revolutionize the American motor car scene. The first American V8 was a 314 CI (5.1 L) and was originally installed in 1915 Cadillacs.

So if your just talking V8's it's the Cadillac, or if you want to (more correctly) talk OHV V8's, the answer is still Cadillac.

And yes, they had carbs.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ive heared a lot of stories about how people used to take a ford flathead V8 back in the day and they used to be pretty quick. never did any research on it tho. what makes it a "flat head" and why were they so easy to make good power ?

[judge_jury_executioner_69]

ill ask this again what makes the 04 "look" (this means things you can see) diffrent from other new cars on the road today? like i said my 69 might look simmilar to A-bodies but the 04 looks like EVERY other car on the road both import and domestic. im glad you know what my system sounds like in my 69. but the 04's system isnt great. not even close. how can you accuratley compare times from a old GTO and a new one? put a "new" set of tires on a old GTO or a "old" set on the new GTO and then compare. youre right i cant name a V8 RWD under $35,000 +/- that will beat a 04 GTO in the 1/4. but i can name some 4/6 bangers that can.