[Rob]

J.C. the Indy 600-13 heads claim numbers in the 500cfm range with 2.450 valves. Sounds reasonable, I made some flow plates with just hole diameters and a hand formed clay radius to compare possible flow through a hole (roughly the seat diameter) and flow numbers of the intake runner/valve seat I was porting on. Used to know those numbers pretty good. Not positive, but I'm pretty sure a 2.300 hole will flow 500cfm @28 inches!

They (aftermarket dodge) have same problem wedge head that just doesn't show the HP to airflow numbers that canted valves or Hemi Heads do. I like watching the B-1 guys, they are doing similar things that Pontiac guys are doing.

-Rob

[BVR421]

Just have play devils advocate here
IA/KRE block, exotic dohc hemi heads or with solinoid op valve actuation?
What part of that motor would be remotely considered Pontiac?
Why bother when the ProStock GM engines are so readily available?
The prostock motors are Pontiac in name only but so are the wild combos you guys are talking about.
Im not against progress and development for our antique cars but at what point is it arguably a Pontiac in name only?
With my dhead 428 I can safely call it a Pontiac and be proud of that in spite of the limitation for potential. Once a conventional Pontiac motor reachs, what? 750hp range isnt that about it? At that point why not accept it and move to another design and drop the pretense that the new one will be a Pontiac.

Conciousness, that annoying interval of time between naps.

[J.C.you]

421 u can be content with ur combo and keep ur ra 1V cam, roades lifters, stock rods if u want and I will not put a friggin' chevolet motor in my 66.I can see u are not a drag racer by ur post. U can keep ur antique poncho and I and others will race them with the design improvements that are provided us by a few decicated people willing to spend their time and effort doing this. Why not put u a ricer motor in ur poncho, u will get better gas milage! Hope u win ur next show.

66 GTO RED TIGER

[Tom Vaught]

421, so what you are saying is that Pontiac should have kept the valve sizes and bore in the ORIGINAL 287 cid engine and never designed and created all of the other engine sizes, the Ram
Air 4 and 5 heads, intakes, etc because they could have used the 55 Chebby parts?

Same deal!

What the present generation Pontiac Enthusiasts are doing is taking their own money and moving the PONTIAC design to a higher level now that the factory has chosen to not fund further development
work on the Traditional Pontiac engine.

Don't see very much development money being spent on the 396 Chebby engine lately by the factory
either. And a 502 is nothing like a 396 Chebby engine.

Tom V.

[Rob]

There's some pride racing something similar to what you went to the cruise-ins with and use whatever technology learned to have a competive race car.

Scott Rex, Jack Gaydosh, Jim Yanoski, these guys and many others are independent racers using the engine they've grown up with, taking the "I'd rather fight than switch" attitude as far as it can go.

It's cool taking something past where you found it.


-Rob

[TUNNEL PORT]

421, Your useing old factory parts Great, me to. Ive used 30+ yr old parts for years just like everyone else here & spent way to much $ on hard to impossible to find original pontiac parts like RA IV & V or SD heads, rods ect. We can & have proved many times over the years that chevy, ford & pontiac that put together with original factory sold parts of the same era we are more than a match.& Tom's right some change is good & can only help us. If we would have had the Hemi motor & RA V motors from 69'-70'accualy sold in car to public then Summit & Jegs would have had many more pages becouse all the pont after market parts that would have been backed by Pont. Pontiacs old parts design works fine only if all other makes had the same limited selection. I want as many aftermarket parts to choose from as they have & at about or the same $. A chevy crate motor seems to be just like a computer, the moment you by it theres a much better up graded verion for the same $ that just came out

[PunchT37]

421,what do you think of the Gen3 engs. or the
mark5 big blocks? They changed port design on
the 8.1L`s also.

[FantomPoncho]

Basically, KRE, Butler, and just about everyone on this board is continuing where GM dropped the ball in '81. I think most of us are continuing the R&D on an engine that we feel is superior.

I believe that had GM made the right decision in '81, drop the chevy and continued with the better-designed Pontiac, all of our parts catalogs would be filled with after market Pontiac parts and a small 2-page section for the chebby guys.

However, reality is vastly different. The creation of all these new after-market parts, slowly but surely, validate what GM could not see...that the Pontiac V8 design was superior. Considering the fact that there has not been a production Pontiac in 22 years and the engine is thriving more than ever is a credit to it's design.

Soon everyone on this board will see what a Pontiac Hemi will do on Steve Barcak's blown fuel digger. The Hemi heads have already been given the OK to be run in the class by NHRA tech. In the next couple years, all will see great advances in head and block design, based on the Pontiac model.

[mikeb]

This is..... a great time to be a pontiac enthusiast.

Funny that the reniassance is occurring so many years after pontiac quit making them.

The supply of good used OEM blocks is drying up so a well designed, available aftermarket pontiac block is a good thing.

[J.C.you]

Has anyone heard about the new bbf head out now? My machinest told me about the head. They are susposed to flow in the 440 range out of the box. I believe he said the head was cast. Some sort of copy of pro stock heads.

Rob, did u get any cost estimates on ur correspondence with Alan Johnson?

66 GTO RED TIGER

[Rob]

$67,210.00 for 11 sets, or $23,450 for the first pair recievable in 12 weeks. Price is for a finshed cylinder head empty - no valves, springs, etc. That was also for Billets, no water. Didn't price the water heads, but possible, just add another month or two.
I think I could get somewhere in between if 4-5 people are interested in a large Hobby investment.

If anyone is interested, post, email or give me a call (419-560-1004 cell).

-Rob

[rumair]

rob- forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a "water head"?

97 Trans Am WS6
12.13 @ 114.6
M6, stock heads, stock bottom end
74 Formula 455
11.78 @ 114.4
3800 lbs., d-ports, 9" slicks

[Rob]

Rumair,

Sorry, Nitro-Methane engines run Solid Aluminum Billet Heads. There are no passages for coolant of any kind (water) to allow you to run the engine for longer periods of time.

A water head is just slang for a cylinder head that has water jackets. Head would come from a casting of aluminum and not a billet of aluminum. Pretty important to have if you want to run more than 5-10 minutes at a time.

Remember seeing Lee Beard and John Force having a discussion earlier this year? You burn down a Fuel car and people can get hurt.

-Rob

[J.C.you]

Rob, is that head from scratch, or do u have to furnish design work, prints, etc.?

mikeb, it is logical to me that there is a surge of interest in the after market stuff for ponchos.The people that used to own the old muscle cars are in their prime age to purchace the aftermarket parts now.
If GM had the forethought to design the new GTO in a retro design it could be huge for them because of the purchasing power of these same people.
66 GTO RED TIGER

[This message was edited by J.C.you on October 27, 2003 at 03:07 PM.]

[Rob]

From Scratch, their theories going into cad design 2 prototypes and continue from there. If I get financing on board, I would do a lot of brain picking with the Johnson team on designs for runners resizing their ideas and latest stuff to the Pontiac 4.625 bore spacing. Same kind of stuff I did with cometic.

If you look at a lot of the fuel cars the 4.187 bore, 4.500 stroke was pretty common. Other common size is 4.250, 4.375. Really nearly all of the 500cid formulas can be run with the Pontiac Dimensions. I would like to see what they think is the best choice with the pontiac 4 studs per cylinder disadvantage. That and what the alcohol cars are doing, There's a little more engine life if you can keep the heads cooler.

http://www.competitionplus.com/01_15...e_configs.html


-Rob

[mikeb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J.C.you:
mikeb, it is logical to me that there is a surge of interest in the after market stuff for ponchos.The people that used to own the old muscle cars are in their prime age to purchace the aftermarket parts now.
If GM had the forethought to design the new GTO in a retro design it could be huge for them because of the purchasing power of these same people.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah that makes sense; that's where i'm at also (i'm 41). I'm finally able to put some money toward toys now. It's a great time to be a pontiac enthusiast.

[Nickv]

It seems to me that after chevy and ford, the traditional Pontiac has more development work being done right now than Buick, Olds or Mopar. Am I right?

[Goatman]

Mopar? You must be joking! Indy is the KING of power. Right there with the BB Chevy guys.

Not Buick either.

Buicks have aftermarket blocks, HUGE heads, and that's all they need!

I'm like heaven, everybody wanna get to me.........

[Nickv]

Mopar.. Ok I give you that.

Buick? How many companies make aftermarket hi performance parts for the traditional V8 Buick? One, Two? CDP and TA performance come to mind. What aftermarket block do they make for Buick? Only one I know of is a V6 design by T/A. No V8 aftermarket blocks that I'm aware of. Maybe you can enlighten me on that one. Aftermarket heads. They make the stage 1,2 d-ports that flow 300cfm. The Stage 3 and 4 round port heads flow up to 360cfm on the intake side and 250cfm on the exhaust side. They don't seem that "huge".

Oldsmobile.. Mondello is about the only "BIG" aftermarket parts supplier and developer. So I still maintain that the tradional Pontiac V8 for being out of production for 30 years has more support than most out of production engines. Wouldn't you agree?

[Goatman]

TA is all the Buick guys need. There are two guys around here that have orders in for the NEW Buick block. Yes, that's right, there is one coming.

I have a friend (ported my RAIV's) that has a set of Stage III's and IV's and they both flow close to 400 cfm.

I also have another friend here in Fall River that has the second fastest Stage 1 in the country.

Buicks are on the verge of a break out, trust me.

I'm like heaven, everybody wanna get to me.........