[PunchT37]

Run a Crower 60240 cam [210/221@050] and keep the stock springs. Run a pre `73 iron intake or edel. performer with a Q-Jet or 650 Holley.4 tube headers 2.25-2.5 inch pipes,quick timing
curve etc. should put you at low 15`s to high
14`s. By the way, with decent gears[3.23-3.73]
and maybe a little stall[2200-2800].

[74Grandville]

I have your same motor. #11 heads are 89cc about 8:1 compression, not 8.8:1.

I also think cam should be smaller. I ran a 218/224 with around .450 lift with RHOADS lifters. I think that is the only reason I could run that big of a cam. engine ran great with about 15" of vacumn at idle. I also ran a 2800 rpm stall.

[bmpmdf]

My 77 Firebird I have for sale has a 1970 350 with #11 heads and it also has an Erson cam in the high 220" on duration at .050" lift. I runs better than the 218 @ .050" size cam did (268H Comp). My heads cc'ed at 75-77 before getting a .030" cut. But at the bottom of the rpm, I would like a vacuum booster for the brakes. Why does people still think you can't make power with a 350 and a desent size cam? Hasn't anyone else ran 9's with a 350 Pontiac? If 70LeMans wanted, he could build that 350 to run low 11's and drive it without power adders such as nos or a blower/turbo. But it doesn't sound like he has that much to put in it. Screw this baby size cam only idea that only keeps the 350 slow.

[PMDRACER]

I agree with WCWhitey about not going overboard with the cam, but don't chicken out either!

Like I said in my first post, the 350 that was originally in the '71 had the Wolverine/Blue Racer version of the 204/214 cam, and it ran a best of 15.02 with a stock convertor, a peg-leg rear with 3.23s and street tires.

My '69 has the HO Racing HC-02a (HC-01a???) cam that specs out to 280/290 214/224 (@.050) .443/.465 lift. It has run a best of 14.60s with again a stock convertor and a peg-leg 2.88 rear. If I put any type of aftermarket convertor and my 3.23 rear in that car, it would go deep into the 14's. The power brakes work just fine too.

Last thing. I've run a Holley 600 w/elec choke and vac sec on both 350s, and in the case of the '71, have done so for 16 years at least. I have a Q-Jet on the 462 that is now in the '71. This is the first Q-Jet I've run on any car. I can honestly say that IMHO the Q-Jet is probably a better carb for the 350 because of the smaller primaries.

[screamingchief]

The 350 can run strong with big cams,it is just a question about driveability I think most are discussing,take a stock eliminator for example,they can't go big on lift so all they have is duration and lobe events(cam timing) for building power and as I remember when I had my ventura saw a couple 74s in stock running in the 11s, now we know these would never work on the street due to the rest of how they do this(gears,convertors,lots of duration, etc) but when you think about the restrictions they face,it is truly amazing,so I do belive that with some creative building it is possible to build one hell of a fast 350.The only thing that makes me paranoid is on the small valve head the press in studs which if you are building for hi-perf. I'd go and convert to sis. Oh yeah another 350 car that impressed me is the glasgo knaffel/magnum FAST/muscle car drags tempest.

[70LeMANS]

I would run a smaller cam but i want most out of the 350 without having to sacrifice drivability. Like i said before, I don't want a beast of a 350, just one that can hold it's own and be daily driven.I have $1800 to work with, it's not alot by any means, but is enough to send me on the right track. I was very impressed by PMDRACER's combo and results from his setup his DAILY driver. All I need to decide is what cam! lol I will NOT run this motor, or any motor I might build later, on a power adder. I believe in all motor setup's personally. Decisions decisions...


EDIT: really sorry for my ignorance, but what's sis?

[PunchT37]

SIS= screw in studs. He can put a race roller
cam in it if he wants. But it wouldn`t be very
streetable as he wants.

[DAVE RIBEIRO]

Yes, those 350ci still run in the 11's in stocker trim..With 5,000 stall-convertors,5.13 gears,30X9" slicks,etc(3,500lbs.)w/Q-jet+cast manifold..So, yes they can be competitive if you are willing to work on it?? I have a 350ci for my 77 firebird,that has 6X heads(94cc)with
screw in studs.With a 364/364 lift cam should run at least mild 12's at 3820lbs. Again this is a race car only,not street/strip..Anyway good luck with your project...Dave..1033/stock

[screamingchief]

People that is exactly what I was saying,the point is that your cam choice is dependent on the rest of the combination and the desired set of qualities that you require in terms of driveability,I do not limit myself to off the shelf cam choices,if I require something that is not generally available I'll have it made.Now the fact is he's on a budget and looking for the best cost/perfomance choice,which means he has to go with readily available grinds,and is getting some conflicting opinions,all I was saying is the same basic options open for performance on bigger engines exist for this engine,the use of windage tray for example will give some hp,as will a properly sized header and exhaust,heads can be lightly ported,intake port match,etc. and alot of this can be handled by the average DIYer and it will all add up to a strong combo.I am NOT advocating a full on race build,but disaggree that because it is a 350 that somehow the rules change completely,cam duration will still be related to things like compression ratio, intended rpm range, idle characteristics,and this will be slightly effected by it being a smaller engine but we all know that.A well balanced and educated approach is the best way to get where you are going,I was trying to point out that there are some solid ways to make power within reason.As far as pressed/screw in stud isssue that is just my prefernce,and feel it is a good idea even on a budget,dont feel that a bigger valve on these motors is a major issue,and would concentrate on getting proper compression ratio heads and doing mild port work to gain flow.Leave the exotic stuff alone and stick to more traditional stuff and he should have no problem getting it right,no hyd. rollers($$$),even roller rockers when a good long slot w/grooved rocker balls will do,even things like timing chain sets,use a good stock style w/iron gears instead of tru-roller,now if oppertunity should give you the option of an upgrade you obviously take it.The most important thing on a deal like this,and the thing I see most screw up is solid tuning,you HAVE to have it dialed in,no car will run great if improperly tuned.

[screamingchief]

As far as specific cam choice I think pmd racer's choice is what I would use, crower #60241 is virtually identical to this.And if the cam cost is a few $$ more than some I feel this is one area I would not get too concerned to spend a little more.And I would definately use a Q-jet as the 1850 600 cfm is the only holley I DON'T care for,if I went holley I'd probably use a street avenger.All this is pretty much the same as most your recommendations so I guess I was agreeing with most of you,my only thing I was trying to say is don't overlook any area of possible improvement IF cost effective.Those stock elim. guys will weigh like 10-20 cranks to find the lightest one same with rods,etc.,whatever,I'm not saying go out and do this,I'm saying be open to finding small gains and banking them as they wiil add up.

[70LeMANS]

Thanks punch, dave and cheif! I think i might go with pmd's type cam or the crower cam. As for the carb, im going with a Q-Jet 600 or 650 cfm. A friend of mine is going to do the port work for the heads. Im also gunna upgrade the ignition, and new timeing chain. I should start the project come the first or second week of Jan.

[DAVE RIBEIRO]

I agree with the other guys keep it simple.When I talked about how fast the 350ci/stockers are going,it was to show that the
motor has some potenial.I would stick to 068 type cam,Q-jet,HEI set-up,move the cam ahead 4 degrees.Timing at 36* full,maybe a set of headers,maybe 3.73 gears,small-valve heads will work fine(good 3 angle job,2,500-3,000 stall convertor. just my 2 cents..good luck with your
project........ Dave...1033/stock

[tom s]

Dave,your right on,I built a street motor,60 over for 366CI.326 crank,trw cast pistons from Summit,preped stock rods,Summit 2801 cam with a stock pontiac intake and a 650 AFB.Small valve heads that SD did a street port.It put out 318HP with NO tuning except for timing.Just put it on the dyno to break it in.Cam was put in straight up.Really a stock type rebuild.Drives great.In a 3600 lb car with a 3.55 gear and a ST-10 wide ratio trans.Tom

[WCWhitey]

I also agree with the small valve heads, probably out perform the big valves at lower rpm's. The reason I am all for a smaller cam for a mild build was the valve train issues such as not having to swap springs if they are healthy, mild lift and the press studs should be ok and you can torque the stock rockers down to 20 and forget about it. If the budget is an issue, a stock intake with a spread-bore (650 vacuum secondary) holley would be nice, I like the Q-Jet but they add quite a few bucks to the budget unless you are good with them. That all leaves more money for a quality ignition system, good headers, "x" pipe system, all items that can be brought to the next motor if he ever decides to build a bigger one. If it makes 318 hp like Tom S's that would be one fun 350 for not alot of cash. As a side note, I remember when a 14 second car was considered quick, always alot of fun to drive.

[screamingchief]

See my problem is as a ase master tech and all around able mechanic I do virtually all my own work including transmissions,carbs,ignition,engines(except machine work)etc. and don't rely on buying new stuff all the time as buying used and fixing and modifying is no issue to me.So building a Q-jet would be a hell of lot cheaper than buying ANY new carb.The same goes for ignition and feel a well dialed in stock (points or hei) with fresh components would be more than adequate for this build,this is exactly what I was trying to get at,things like the x-pipe exhaust are optional items imo,as the cost/hp dictates this is not critical,and can be done at a future time when funds allow,I would convert to screw in studs LONG before spending money on the x-pipe,aftermarket ignition, and any unneeded parts.I do agree that some decent headers and duals will help if affordable,but they also could wait if needed.These are issues he needs to decide on as it is his project were just source for ideas.

[70LeMANS]

Thanks for all the info! I really appreciate the help. Seems like the 350 isn't a bad a motor some people make it out to be. 14 is still considered fast for people like me =P. Would i need to break in the cam once before I install the headers? I read this was bad because it would ruin the look of the header from all the heat from a new cam. What do you guys think about the MSD 6A? Worth getting?

EDIT: cheif, what would be the cost of converting to screw in studs? I won't be doing this myself (I Think).

[DiamondJim]

Install the headers, get a MSD 6AL(the L has rev limiter chip). Install warp 9 chip and go !!-Jim

[WCWhitey]

ScreaminChief, I am with you. My impression of the whole topic is that it is a bolt on deal. A good mechanic like yourself with good tuning skills can probably gain plenty of HP without all the bolt-ons. I am not sure of 70Lemans's abilities but I assumed them to be average. I just did not see him rebuilding a QJ, or putting in ones own screw in studs, and maybe I am wrong, it just does not seem within his realm. If I am incorrect for assuming I apoligize. So if good money is going to be spent on bolt-on's knowing which will help and which are a waste of money is important. Break it down to basics 1) stock intake vs performer 120 dollar savings (no performance increase) 2) A holley that can be rebuilt by a novice vs a rebuilt QJ easy 150+ (very little if any increase), Screw in studs $80 (maybe good insurance, but no performance gain), valve springs $75 (only if he goes with bigger cam), PolyLocks $40 (ditto), if one sends a used HEI for recurve at least $75 not to mention new cap and coil $40(a $120 dollar new one comes with all the above). I am being conservative with some of my numbers but in my humble opinion it gets to be a case of while I am at it which turns the whole job from "Getting more power out of a 350" into I should have spent the money on a 400/455. My rough total is around $450 which is about the cost of a good set of headers and dual exhaust, give or take. A good exhaust is a solid 20+ HP over a poor, if it came down to true dual or X pipe and there was no money left so be it, as long as it flowed well. I do agree with you on the points system, as that is what I use and get alot of abuse for it, but I know it works and is easy for me to tune. I would rather have a cheap well tuned 300 HP motor than an expensive one capable of 400 HP that runs like crap. LOL, a good discussion, glad to see this 350 build. Not all cars are 12 second cars.

[screamingchief]

Kind of depends on the shop,but a quick trip on the web showed butler quoting appx.60.00,spotts appx.100.00, and PPR(ace) appx. 95.00 these I am guessing don't include the studs. The most common option is to use ARP #290-7201 stud as it has 1/2 threads for head as when you pull the factory stud the hole is too large to tap at 7/16" like bbc.stud,some (spotts I belive) go the heli coil route and use std. bbc. stud,it is a individual choice which you prefer.Me personally I would probably tackle this myself as I am a diy type and feel confident that I could tackle this,would definately help to have access to a good drill press though for tap work,H-O used to make a fixture and I guess that approach would work too.

[screamingchief]

Wc your post came in when I was working on my previous I agree not everones skills are the same thats the reasoning behind keeping it simple approach.All I am trying to say is the other stuff can wait,but anything you have to farm out(like sis conv.) would need to be done upfront as you would not want to yank the heads later to do them.Do I think this is money better spent than a msd HELL YES! If you've ever known someone who has had a stud come out you would too.The msd can be put on the car ANYTIME,as is exhaust,intakes,carbs,etc.thats all I'm getting at.Once you have a solid foundation to build on you add the luxuries.And I do not think a good set of valvesprings to be a extravegance but a nescessity as most of these engines have seen plenty of miles,there has been much discussion on the possible affects of poor seat pressure possibly contributing to cam failure in another thread here and I have made my view on this known there.I also don't think sending out a ditributor would be needed as to me that falls in the realm I refered to as solid tuning,this can be done on any car in the car easily.To me I see no difference in the skill required to dial in a Q-jet or a holley, the only difference is the ready availability of parts as it can be somewhat hard to locate a good Q-jet parts source,still does'nt change my opinion of the 1850 holley though,and I'm a holley guy myself.I also do not like to use polylocks on high mileage, driver type vehicles and prefer to use stock 7/16" bbc.locknuts.I have no problem using points or hei as they both can work just fine,my ventura w/350 had points and never missed a beat just used good quality parts and dialed it in.Last but not least I am only offering my opinion on what I would do,I never said if you do it any other way you'll be sorry,it his deal and feel he'll do as he wants the last thing I'm tying to do is create friction here.