[thebigfink]

(if I posted this twice I apoligize, this is my first time). I asked the guy I am trying to buy a 65 GTO from if the engine was original. He said that the engine numbers on all 64 and 65 GTO's meant nothing. He said it was a WT block (?) and that was the correct one for that model and year but that no one could tell from the VIN and engine number whether the engine matched or not for those two years. Is this true? I have the VIN number, could I get the PHS documents and tell if it is the original engine? He says the transmission is original - so can he know the transmission is original but not the motor? Thanks much for any help.

[thebigfink]

(if I posted this twice I apoligize, this is my first time). I asked the guy I am trying to buy a 65 GTO from if the engine was original. He said that the engine numbers on all 64 and 65 GTO's meant nothing. He said it was a WT block (?) and that was the correct one for that model and year but that no one could tell from the VIN and engine number whether the engine matched or not for those two years. Is this true? I have the VIN number, could I get the PHS documents and tell if it is the original engine? He says the transmission is original - so can he know the transmission is original but not the motor? Thanks much for any help.

[gtoric]

I have not seen a Billing History Card for 1965, but if they are like the cards from '67, the engine sequence number should be entered on the card copy from PHS. You can also get a little bit better idea of how close the engine block might be to the car by the date code on the upper rear of the block near the distributor hole. That date should be within several weeks ahead of the assembly date listed on the BHC or the Fisher data plate on the firewall. The V.I.N. will not be stamped on the '65 block, 1968 was the first full year for that feature. The V.I.N. will, however, be stamped on the Muncie 4-speed. There was so much thieft of the Muncie in 1964 that PMD started to stamp a partial V.I.N. on the transmission in '65. It should be stamped at the rear of the main case, either vertically on the side, or on the top next to the joint with the rear bearing plate. It will read 2*1xxxxx. The 2 stands for Pontiac, the assembly plant code letter will be in the asterisk position, the last six numbers should match the last six numbers of the V.I.N.

[Trips4me]

If he has the "protecto-plate" then the engine ID# and code will be on it. If not then WT is the code for a 389 automatic car. If the engine is a 389 The engine date code and block casting number can be found at the rear of the engine next to the distributer. The correct number for the block is 9778789 and the date code should be a couple of weeks or so prior to the car build date which is located on the Data Plate. The block date code should be something like this: K124 this indicates that the block was build on Nov, 12 1964 which would be correct for a car built in the last week of November up to about the 1st couple of weeks of December 1964. This website will help as well.

http://www.gtoalley.com/sixfive.html

[thebigfink]

Thank you both so much for your expert information. I greatly appreciate it. This should help out immensely.

[bigpop]

The WT engine is for a 4 speed not an automatic transmission.bigpop

[Trips4me]

Correct.. my error.

WS - Manual, Tri-power
YR - Auto, Tri-power
YS - Auto, 4 BBL
WT - Manual, 4 BBL

[pmdclassics]

Is the VIN stamped next to the timing chain cover on the 65's then?? Also a YD would represent a 65 GTO 389 auto with factory A/C according to Wallace racing's site.

[Trips4me]

The engine number and block ID is stamped on the passenger side next to the timing cover. However, the number has nothing to do with the VIN. The only way to tell is by matching the Potect-O-Plate, which has the VIN and engine ID on it. The only other way is to match the engine, intake, head, and carburetor date codes which should precede the car build date by
4-8 weeks (per GTOAA). YD is a code for a big Pontiac 389.. not a GTO. I have a YD in my GTO and it is NOT a GTO engine.

[pmdclassics]

The Wallace Racing web site states that the YD engine is from 1965 and it designated the A/C cars.

[Trips4me]

I'd like to see the URL that shows that because it is incorrect. First of all there is NO 1965 (or any other year that I am aware of) engine code designation for a "A/C" GTO. They do not code engines as to wether they had A/C or not. The codes designate carb/tranny combos. If you look at my previous post I listed all the engine codes for 1965 GTO's. That's all there is and there ain't no more.

Here is a Wallace URL that lists the engine codes.

http://www.pontiacpower.org/engine.htm

You will see that the YD is a 290hp 389. There are no YD codes for GTO's. I also scoured my GTO resto manual as well and could not find a YD code for any GTO engine 1964-70.

[65GTO428]

The only YD GTO engine block was in 1973. It was a 455CID 250 HP Automatic car engine.

[Trips4me]

Actually I have a 1965 YD 389 in my 1965 GTO. Look at the website I posted and you will see a YD listed for 1965.

[Trips4me]

Sorry ... "in a GTO" is probably correct. My resto manual only goes to 1970.

[gtoric]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trips4me:
...intake, head, and carburetor date codes which should precede the car build date by
4-8 weeks (per GTOAA). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wasn't aware that the GTOAA had established a time frame for component date coding. Is this one judge's opinion or is this an official ruling by the committee? As I've posted in the past, all of the Pontiac V8s were created in the Pontiac plant. Cars built in Pontiac were assembled in plant #8. The engines were assembled in plant #9. These two plants were actually under the same roof with only a wall to separate the two plants. The engines merely traveled on an overhead conveyor line, through a hole in the wall, into the assembly plant for installation into the cars. All of the other assembly plants received their engines via rail. The physical distance that the engines had to travel to the various assembly plants would suggest that the time span between engine and car assembly would vary depending on the final assembly plant. IMO, a span of 1 to 4 weeks would be more realistic. The various cast engine components (heads, intake, block) are normally all within 1-2 weeks of one another; a lot of the time in a 3-5 day time frame.

There are several errors in the Wallace.com eingine list. Never rely on one source for any information...

[Trips4me]

Ric,

I do not consider myself an expert on restorations so I sent a e-mail to the president of GTOAA. In the e-mail I received about 4 days ago in response to my question concerning engine build date vs. car build date he stated 4-8 weeks.

[gtoric]

Trips, I don't mean to be argumentative, but that's one man's opinion. I don't think that Bill is on the Concours Judging committee. You should probably contact the committee chairman to get a definitive answer. Personally, I've seen many original engine/car combos that are coded closer than 4 weeks.

[decco37]

In my matching numbers 64, the engine cast date is June 20, and the production date on the build sheet is June 25, only 5 days later.

[gtoric]

Decco, where was your car assembled? Also, by build sheet, do you mean the factory broadcast sheet, or is this the billing documentation from PHS?

[decco37]

My car was built in Pontiac. I think I'm calling the broadcast sheet the build sheet. It was part of the documentation sent by PHS.