[David Jones]

Recently got my heads and hydraulic roller cam back and have installed them. The car will not fire at all. Let me run over the installation procedure I used. I installed the heads and torqued them down to 95ft/lbs. Initial pull of 35ft/lbs, then 60,80 and 95. Cam install was straight forward and turned in the bearings about like the one I took out. I set the timing chain 6 oclock cam sprocket to 12 oclock crank sprocket. I figured I'd be rotaing the engine anyway while setting the valves and feel 6 to 12 is more accurate. The lifters being hydraulic roller would only fit one way, link bar out away from the block. Comps instructions said to face the arrow on the link bar up, but on my set there was NO arrow. Comp was stamped in the bar and faced down as they came out of the box. I left them that way. I could have rotated the lifters so Comp was facing up, but the net effect of that would only have put the slot on the link bar on the other end. I figured Comp put them in the box like I installed them so.... (mistake maybe?) Anyway, I used new pushrods as supplied by "Dude" (shorter) and my old 1.50 Harland Sharpe roller rockers (perfect shape) I cleaned the lifters in mineral spirits and then left them soaking in 10w-40 oil for what ended up being 2 days. I installed each pair of lifters, pushods and rockers one at a time. Each contact point between these pieces was oiled and the rockers dropped on the rocker studs and carefully run down until while spinning the pushrod contact was felt. At 1st contact the polylock was tightened 1/4 turn and while holding the polylock stationary the setscrew was tightened. Timing cover, aluminum valley intake etc went on without any problems and were torqued down per spec. I installed a polymer gear on the distributor before installing it. I rotated the engine to TDC #1 cylinder and dropped the distributor in. I verified TDC by lightly stuffing a paper towel in the sparkplug hole and turning the engine over by hand. 1st pass by the tdc timing mark on the balancer the towel stayed put next time it was spit out. Location of the rotor was noted and the cap was installed. Plug wires were installed starting with number 1 on the cap terminal in front of where the rotor was facing and installed counterclockwise as per the firing order on the intake manifold. I have now done this twice just for laughs. I have also checked and the fuel pump is pumping gas. Took the fuel line loose at the carb and stuck it in a cup and cranked the engine over a few revolutions. Half a cup full. Attached my timing light to the #1 plug wire and pointed it toward me as I cranked the engine over and was greeted with a flash as it fired. Also took the #1 plug out and had my son crank the car as I verified spark. Good spark. The car will not fire at all. Nothing.
Could me having installed the lifters in the same position as Comp shipped them to me been a mistake? I know not many of you guys have messed with hyd roller lifters and might not be familiar with what I'm talking about. Could this be causing the valves to hang open causing my not firing at all situation? Is 1/4 turn past first contact to much on this type lifter causing the valves to hang open? This thing hasn't fired at all.
Thanks guys, David

[David Jones]

Recently got my heads and hydraulic roller cam back and have installed them. The car will not fire at all. Let me run over the installation procedure I used. I installed the heads and torqued them down to 95ft/lbs. Initial pull of 35ft/lbs, then 60,80 and 95. Cam install was straight forward and turned in the bearings about like the one I took out. I set the timing chain 6 oclock cam sprocket to 12 oclock crank sprocket. I figured I'd be rotaing the engine anyway while setting the valves and feel 6 to 12 is more accurate. The lifters being hydraulic roller would only fit one way, link bar out away from the block. Comps instructions said to face the arrow on the link bar up, but on my set there was NO arrow. Comp was stamped in the bar and faced down as they came out of the box. I left them that way. I could have rotated the lifters so Comp was facing up, but the net effect of that would only have put the slot on the link bar on the other end. I figured Comp put them in the box like I installed them so.... (mistake maybe?) Anyway, I used new pushrods as supplied by "Dude" (shorter) and my old 1.50 Harland Sharpe roller rockers (perfect shape) I cleaned the lifters in mineral spirits and then left them soaking in 10w-40 oil for what ended up being 2 days. I installed each pair of lifters, pushods and rockers one at a time. Each contact point between these pieces was oiled and the rockers dropped on the rocker studs and carefully run down until while spinning the pushrod contact was felt. At 1st contact the polylock was tightened 1/4 turn and while holding the polylock stationary the setscrew was tightened. Timing cover, aluminum valley intake etc went on without any problems and were torqued down per spec. I installed a polymer gear on the distributor before installing it. I rotated the engine to TDC #1 cylinder and dropped the distributor in. I verified TDC by lightly stuffing a paper towel in the sparkplug hole and turning the engine over by hand. 1st pass by the tdc timing mark on the balancer the towel stayed put next time it was spit out. Location of the rotor was noted and the cap was installed. Plug wires were installed starting with number 1 on the cap terminal in front of where the rotor was facing and installed counterclockwise as per the firing order on the intake manifold. I have now done this twice just for laughs. I have also checked and the fuel pump is pumping gas. Took the fuel line loose at the carb and stuck it in a cup and cranked the engine over a few revolutions. Half a cup full. Attached my timing light to the #1 plug wire and pointed it toward me as I cranked the engine over and was greeted with a flash as it fired. Also took the #1 plug out and had my son crank the car as I verified spark. Good spark. The car will not fire at all. Nothing.
Could me having installed the lifters in the same position as Comp shipped them to me been a mistake? I know not many of you guys have messed with hyd roller lifters and might not be familiar with what I'm talking about. Could this be causing the valves to hang open causing my not firing at all situation? Is 1/4 turn past first contact to much on this type lifter causing the valves to hang open? This thing hasn't fired at all.
Thanks guys, David

[johnta1]

First, I don't know anything about the hydraulic rollers, but I can't see it being a problem unless it's not letting the roller seat while on the base circle.

When you adjusted the valve was the lifter on the base circle?

Might try backing off the lash some and see what happens.

[Jack Gifford]

Maybe pull a rocker cover and watch for reasonable valve movements while cranking? Maybe the driver's side, so you can double (triple?) check that both #1 valves are closed when distributor rotor points to #1? Good luck- I'm sure you'll find something soon!

[Schurkey]

There are several details in your procedure that have been missed. I presume you've done it correctly, it just takes too long to type all that crap.

An engine needs just a few things to run.

1. A burnable fuel/air mixture.

2. A strong spark, delivered at the proper time.

3. Compression

I don't see any immediate problems with #1, you have already verified fuel supply, and there's no reason to think the carb is screwy. If all you had was a small puddle of fuel in the manifold, and everything else was good, the engine would pop.

What distributor do you have? Both point-type and HEI can be static timed easily enough--especially the HEI! You have verified that you have spark, but not that it is at the proper time.

You've not verified #3 at all. Now would be a good time to do a compression test.

The polymer distributor gear scares me. I thought those were for dry-sump engines only. (no drag from the oil pump-spins the distributor only)

[David Jones]

John, I set the lash while I had the valley pan off. I verified that I was on the backside of each lobe as I set each valve. Even climbed over into the engine compartment on the one you can't see from in front of the car so I could look at it from the back.

Jack, I'll be doing that Tuesday. Got Little League practice and practice for the Church Easter musical monday evening and night.

Schurkey, the car was running fine when I took it down. The distributor is a Dave's smallbody HEI conversion. You have to put a different distributor gear on because the Hydraulic rollers will eat a stock one. My understanding is that the polymer gears will last much longer than the bronze (or is it brass?) replacements. Compression test? I'm sure I've got at least enough to make it run and think it is in really good shape bottom end wise. The cylinder walls looked great. I do have a compression tester, don't guess it would hurt to check it.

I'm at a loss guys, it won't hit at all.

[larry davis]

Upon my intial fire up of the new 428+ w/ hyd roller (Crane lifters), Ray & myself had similar problem. It would only fire on one cylinder? Having assembeled the lifters as per the Crane instructions; we did not pump them up and installed them dry, adjusting lash. Did prime the engine untill oil flowed through all roller rockers, oil lines, etc...
We called everyone, Dude included, couldn't figure it out? W/ Ken and a couple of other's help we finally figured out that the valves weren't closing due to the lifter's adj. being off from actually pumping up and not allowing them to close!!!
We re-adjusted w/ the lifters pumped up & viola;ignition!
Maybe something else for you, but that's what we had. Thanks Crane!

[60man]

Hey David. Very flustrating I'm sure. Looks like you covered your bases but obviously some tihng's not right. Start from scratch again. A COMPRESSION TEST NEVER HURTS. By chance have you got the distributor 180 off! Remember #6 & #1 fire 180 opposed. You could see a spark at #1 on damper but but in reality #6 is on the power stroke,not #1. You can also verify by pulling vavle cover and watching valves to verify #1 comopression stroke. You can also pull #1 plug and turn crank by hand and place finger over hole and feel for compression stroke and place damper on TDC,then look at rotor position,it should be pointing at #1 plug terminal. If it not.........it's off.

[Jim Doran]

David, I see you checked that you have fuel getting to the carb, but perhaps your float / needle is stuck.

Do you get a good squirt of gas from the accelerator pump ? Have you tried pouring a small capful of gas into the carb to prime ?

All of your other steps which you meticulously detailed sound right on. Pretty soon I see a new book coming out. Pontiacs for Dummies.

[David Jones]

Larry I'm leaning toward something like what you've described. Valves hanging open for some reason. I did prime the engine AFTER I set the lash. Good oil flow all around. Mine hasn't hit a lick on any cylinders.

60man, hows that shoulder? I checked the distributor first and it looks right to me. 2nd time I checked it as per my description in my opening paragraph. Paper towel in the spark plug hole, 1st pass around the TDC timing mark on the balancer the paper towel stayed in the hole, second time around it blew out. This was turning the engine over with a wrench and all the plugs out. Rotor was pointed at the #1 plug wire. If the distributor was out 180 degrees wouldn't the car fire on some of the cylinders? Mine hasn't hit a lick. Period. At all. I'm stumped.

[george kujanski]

Mandatory compression test.

George

[David Jones]

Jim, I'm beginning to think I could write that book!!!!! I did pour a small amount of gas in the carb. Managed to get a small fire on top of the carb for about 5 seconds. It was out by the time I got out of the car and got around to it. About took a dump in my pants . That would be a good opening chapter in my new book.....Chapter 1 "How I burned up my car after I spent a ton of money on it"

[David Jones]

George, Thats coming up. Where did the compression go since I took it apart? Don't read that as smart assed, please. I don't mean it that way at all. I just don't understand how I could lose enough compression to make it not fire at all by having the heads rebuilt. Pistons, block,bottom end haven't been touched and did fine before I took it apart back in December. If the compression was low wouldn't it still fire?

[Jim Doran]

If there was a major valve actuation issue, then the compression test would reveal that.

Are you getting a good pump squirt out of the carb ? I realize it should have at least started momentarily when you had your opportunity to change your shorts; LOL

One other idea, if your like me, you stuff rags or paper towels into the intake ports prior to the intake being bolted to the heads. You didn't leave anything in there did you ? Not trying to insult in any way, as I did this myself and had to remove intake.

[J_JAMNIK]

I had this problem when installing cam, roller rockers and lifters. If I were a betting man, I'd have to agree with Larry and George. I think the valves are hanging open. Connect a compression guage and see what you get while cranking the engine. If the valves stay open, you can't build compression past 15-20 psi.

[David Jones]

Jim, I haven't peered over into the carb yet. Check the fuel pump operation is as far as I've gotten. I'm thinking right now that I'm going to check the valve lash again when I get another shot at working on it to see how that is. Larry's past problem really sounds like what I'm experiencing. I'm not ruling out anything, but I don't think I left anything in the valley. It would make a good second chapter for my book though .

Guys, thanks for all your insights and suggestions. Keep'em coming, this has really got me scratching my head. I'm not that great a mechanic, but I would have expected at least one cylinder to fire at least once. I've taken it apart down to the cam a few times before and followed the same procedures I've described in putting it back together and its always lit right up. Maybe my blind beginners luck has just run out! Sounds like another chapter in "Pontiacs for Dummies"

[Schurkey]

"Where did the compression go since I took it apart? Don't read that as smart assed, please. I don't mean it that way at all. I just don't understand how I could lose enough compression to make it not fire at all by having the heads rebuilt."

I bought a boat with a Chevy engine that wouldn't run. Owned by a "Ford" guy, and he could never get it to run since he "adjusted" the valves. Sold it to me in frustration.

You got it. NO COMPRESSION. Valves adjusted too tight.

I'm not ruling out other issues...but until you verify compression, you're wasting your time guessing about anything else.

[David Jones]

Schurkey and all you other guys that have suggested a compression test forgive me for sounding and being so stupid!!!! Laying here awake after ingesting massive quantities of Mexican food it hit me that a compression test can point out other things than a worn out motor! DUH on my part. Things like "valves hanging open" such as I wondered in my opening paragraph and most everybody else threw out as a possibility. How stupid that I didn't see the forest for the trees, so to speak. Duh. Duh. duh. I've always thought you did a compression test to determine how bad the motor was worn before you rebuilt it. Never occured to me that it could also point out that the valves weren't closing. Duh again. Thanks fellas.
Chapter 4 of my new book will be titled "Pay Attention".
Other possibilities?

[Rholmes]

I had the same problem as Larry when installing my hyd roller with other difficulties I won't go into.First verify p/r length (8.650-8.675 max).Submerge lifters in 10-30(easier to pump-up with)MAKE SURE THEY ALL WILL PUMP UP.Bar linkage really not an issue.

[David Jones]

Larry, when you say you readadjusted with them pumped up, what did you do? Did you take them back out and pump them up by hand some way or other or simply take off the valve cover after spinning the engine over and adjust the lash again? Specifics please. Obviously I am an idiot on this....
Thanks, David