[70 Dream]

There are conflicting opinions here on the board and from other input I've received on this subject.

I'm planning a stock rebuild on my 400, and need to decide what to do.

STOCK CAST RODS

resize, check for straightness, harden by shot peening - how much will all of this cost, and is it all necessary?

comment - stock rods are the weakest link in a rebuild

comment - stock rods are ok if rpms don't get too high

comment - polish

comment - do not polish

AFTERMARKET RODS

get forged

Eagle was recommended by 3 members

are billet rods overkill?

many comments - use ARP bolts

If new Eagle rods cost about the same as reconditioning the old stock rods, why not get new?

Thanks for helping to clear up my confusion . . . .

Harry

[Skip Fix]

Harry you've hit on everything already! Cast rods can handle mild to medium builds but should be resized and have new bolts. That's where the machining costs get close to a new rod cost. There are even some cheaper forged I beams than the EAGLE type H beams. The new rods are made out of a better material for the stress of a racing engine. Like everything in life it's a cost benefit ratio. You have to weigh cost of machine shop work and stil having weaker cast rods vs cost of new stronger rod.

Billet is probably overkill unless you have a really high HP or endurance racing motor now that there are other options.

[form406]

polishing and shot peening stock rods are a waste of $ because you could have bought forged rods for the $ spent...especially if the rods are hi milers... get forged rods already prepped from a reputable shop...NOT UNPREPPED(unfinished) OFF OF EBAY!!! you dont build a house on a weak foundation, correct?

[70 Dream]

Thanks, Skip,

Form 406, what do you mean when you say to prep the new rods? If they are new, what else do you have to do to them?

[tom s]

if it is truly a "stock" 400 rebuild with a RPM limit of 5500 a set of well rebuilt cast rods are fine.If anykind of race work,aftermarket rods are in order.IMHO the weakest link in the motor is the rod and put in the best you can afford for the RPM and HP.Tom

[70 Dream]

I went on the Eagle web site and saw that their rods are forged in China.

Does this worry anyone?

Is this cause for worry?

[Schurkey]

Hell yes, it worries me. A lot!

NOBODY goes to China for better quality. They go to China because the Communist government is willing to prostitute it's population for amazingly low wages. Buying from the Communists is about one-half step away from actually supporting slavery. You ARE supporting forced labor, often child labor, and you ARE supporting an economy that has approximately zero regard for workforce rights and ecological matters.

Guess what the Chinese government is doing with the trade surplus? Buying war material, that's what.

Twenty years from now, after we've built their infrastructure and practically taught their people how to work in industry, the Chinese government will have bought enough weapons from the Russians and Israelis (and made some of their own) to go to war with us. THEY ARE ALREADY BUYING WEAPONS, AND STOCKPILING! It will make Iraq look like a schoolyard squabble. And the nukes are likely to land on OUR soil as well.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...9/154806.shtml
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FC26Ad02.html

And to add insult to catastrophe, AMERICAN tax dollars are being used to develop Israeli weapons, which Israel then sells to China and other enemies of the USA.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0509-07.htm

Are you prepared to send your kids to fight the Chinese? It will be the first all out, "real" war since WWII. The only reason we didn't kick ass in Korea and Vietnam is because we feared the Russians and Chinese would become more actively involved, instead of playing the "supporting role" as they did. The North Koreans and the North Vietnamese had NOTHING that could bring the war to North America. China does.

[form406]

the majority of the more inexpensive forged rods (and cranks) are imported from asia...quality control or lack of can be questionable (ie. unable to be balanced or not meeting required specs for roundness)...then you have to bring it to a machine shop to be finished...if it can be finished...some are unacceptable then you are stuck trying to return or replace, ship back and forth or in some cases on ebay you are out of luck...paying a bit more and getting them from p-dude, butler, etc. (maybe stock rods from them?) you know you are getting a finished product ready to go prepped by somebody who cares...if you arent racing or towing you can use stock rods, have them resized then magged, not visa versa...i have friends that race with stock rods (from butler) even with juice to 6500 rpm's!!! , but its still a gamble...forged rods have been much more affordable in the last few years...just research like you are and fit your budget vs. use...its impossible for me not to rev my stock rods up in my 406 and when i cross 5500 rpms... im paranoid cause i have toasted stock rods before...which toasted my 70' 462 4 bolt main block, 2 pistons, cam, oil pump, distributor... ..i got my 406 shortblock with balanced rotating assembly w/ trw's for $300. ...thats why im running stock rods now cause that all i could afford...

[myckee]

Well Schurkey, I guess you better stop buying and using computers, get rid of most of your clothes, get rid of that late model vehicle you drive(manufaturer irrelevant as most of it is Chinese), get rid of your stereo..hell, pretty much everything you own, and go live off in the bush somewhere. Foraging off the land. It is the only way you will be able to avoid those chinese. Bye Shurkey.

For the rest of us who understand that our economies are pretty much irrevesibly tied into China, we will continue on with life.

Just becasue it says made in China on it, doesn't mean its crap. This is the same phenomenon with made in Japan after the war. Once people got their heads out of their arses, they realised that the Japanese stuff was the best in the world. I'm not saying everthing out of China is spectacular, just that it isn't as black and white as some people like to proclaim.

Therefore, those Eagle rods, made in China aren't neccessarily crap. I use them in my engine, and they are perfect. They were perfect out of the box. Within 1 gram of eachother!

[Cliff Ruggles]

Stock cast rods are incredibly strong and stable parts....right up to the point where they BREAK! This happens without warning and usually takes the whole engine with it. Ya, ya, I know, scores of folks running 10's with well prepared cast rods, here it all the time. Some things to ponder on:

About 15 years ago we encountered another racer at a local track. He had a beautiful early GTO, Nash 5 speed, RAIV heads and used an old solid cam. The car ran well into the 10's and he spun the engine well past 6000rpm's. At the time I was amazed, so we got on the discussion of engine durabilty.

He said that they shot peened, magged, polished, resized and installed new bolts in factory cast rods.....they snapped like twigs on the very FIRST run!

The next effort involved rebuilding an early set of SD forged rods with correct heat treating, etc, etc, bent them into "S's" on the FIRST run!

Ordered custom Crower billet rods and they ran season after season without any issues. At the time the only real trouble he was having was keeping a rope seal in the 400 engine.

For what it's worth, back in the 70's when I was in high school lots of us had "Muscle Cars", mostly Mopar's and Chevy's. The few who ran Pontiac's were constantly scouring the salvage yards for spare engines. We catagorized the Pontiac engines for having "soft" internals, so we avoided them at all costs.

30 years later, I have no doubt that the cast rods were the death sentence of so many of these engines. Of course non of us back then even looked at the tach when doing "donuts" in the high school parking lot at FULL throttle or during grudge races on the street. One very close friend of mine went through about a half dozen Pontiac 400 engines in less than two years....he was a barbarian behind the wheel and his foot was constantly pushing a hole in the floor board!

For what it's worth and my opinion, complete waste of time to bead blast, shot peen, polish, resize, good bolts, balance, etc a set of cast rods these days when you can buy good forged rods at reasonable prices that are many times than the cast rods would ever be after all the time/expense. If nothing else you will sleep better at night and have much less of a "pucker" factor when you spin your big Injun to past 6000 rpm's if a good set of forged rods are in place!......Cliff

[form406]

hahaha..."pucker"...that what i do when i go over 5300 rpms on my my 406 with 35 year stock old rods ...when you buy asian imports you are supporting our american economy as well cause we are the ones selling them and making the bigger profit...

[Z Code 400]

Just across town, there is a 455 on the stand with a set of Crower I-Beam Rods. It spun the #1 and #2 main bearings and destroyed the crankshaft. We are seeing a lot of this on the local Pontiac scene and it has nothing to do with rod material.

I would not suggest spending more on a set of stock rods than you could buy a new set of Crower's for. That would be ridiculous. In my case, I do my own work, so the stock rods are cheap.

Almost everytime I have seen a rod failure, there was evidence to support a detonation condition, poor/improper assembly, oiling issues or overrevving.

Never, ever saw a problem with a 389 Pontiac. I have built several of those engines over the years (stock restorations) where the owners drove the hell out of them. Never saw a rod failure.

I built one 389 in particular for a gentleman. It was a 1965 GTO body-off restoration done by our shop. When it was done, he really abused this car. About 2 years after delivery, he complained about 1/4 mile performance. I drove down to Bakersfield Raceway and went for a ride with him.

Every shift, he revved the 389 until it would rev no more...the front end of the car would just lay down...and he was burrying the tach. I asked him why he was doing this as I felt the 389 was over and done with past 5300. He felt he was 'getting every last drop' out of the engine and had been driving it like this for two years.

I made a few passes shifting at 5500 and the 1/4 mile times immediately improved.

That engine, built in 1986, is still running and being taken to the drags on a regular basis.

I think a Chinese rod is OK as long as you bake them in an industrial oven for 8 hours at 400°F to stress relieve them. Smokey Yunick used to do this to SBC rods and it is detailed in a few publications. We started doing it on Flathead Ford V8's when I was working for the family business in high school.

Immediately after cooling them natuarlly, I would resize them to the low side of the tolerance.

The answer depends on how much you have to spend and what you intend on doing with the engine. That's just my take on the subject...Robert

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Cliff Ruggles

. he spun the engine well past 6000rpm's. ......Cliff

There you go. Damn factory rods!

I normally agree with Cliff, Mr.P., etc. I will have to disagree on this one. This guy is buiding a "stock 400". If he plans on spinning it to sane RPM's, I say resize the factory rods with good bolts. They will live a long happy life. Unless, of course, you are going to some cheap dumna$$ engine builder (and there are plenty) who doesn't know how to build a Pontiac. Then maybe you should go with the aftermarket rods.

Originally Posted by Cliff Ruggles

.At the time the only real trouble he was having was keeping a rope seal in the 400 engine.......Cliff

If he couldn't install a rope seal, why would you expect him to keep rods in the pan?

[DiamondJim]

A little off subject, but....I am an Electrical Contractor, Commercial/industrial. Today in a span of about 5 minutes I noticed the following: the 2x4 lay-in lt fixtures we rec from Lithonia Lighting were made in Mexico, the recessed can lights we installed came from Korea, and the lamps we installed in them came from Vietnam!! We also use a ton of other stuff from China. The cat is out of the bag. I am as Pariotic as the next guy but if we used all USA stuff we would be out of business!! Just food for thought, FWIW. BTW, actual topic related-LOL, RSB motorsports also sells Scat 4340 H-Beam rods, they are a less expensive alternate to others, come with ARP bolts. Just be sure the machine shop checks them out good, a couple of mine were a little tight and had to be touched up. I would not hesitate to use Scat again. -Jim

[Bruce Meyer]

Who said its cheaper to buy Eagles than to resize stock rods? They must be getting ripped off by their machinist! If you buy new Chinese rods you might have to resize them anyway. Go American as in Crower.
If its a stock rebuild then the factory cast rods will work fine with new bolts and a resize.

[Kybird]

This is from Kauffman Racing Equipment. I spent about $150 for ARP bolts and resizing of my stock rods 4 years ago. Certainly an option. I respect Kauffman.

This is CAT's stock replacement rod. Standard length of 6.625" with pressfit pin end. Great rod for stock to mild performance engines. Rated to 500 hp.

$ 250.00

[P@blo]

I think Proline will also have a I beam 5140 forged rod at 6.625" in the same price range i do belive (250.00).....Pdude could probably give a little more information than i can.....

[70 Dream]

Yes, I'm hoping that Pontiac Dude reads this post, otherwise, I'll have to PM him . . . . .

I also need his opinion on the HB hypereutectic piston . . . . .

[form406]

it was $90. to have my stock rods resized...as for buying imported asian products there is no way around it in daily life as we know it...imported products make more profit and are more affordable...the biggest american companies are outsourcing there (i know people taking early retirement because their factory is relocating to china)...and we have sold record amounts of weapons to china and india...talk to the president about that...back to cars...70 dream ill have to cruise down in my bird to check yours out...

[WARPed]

The cat 5140 (and their derivatives) is the way to go with any kind of performance in mind over the stock rods. With that said they should be given a once over (like any part) to make sure everything is, as it should.


And as stated above the Asia products are EVERYWHERE in our American lives.

Chinese Naysayers Should Read This Post