[Brian Baker]

I fully understand why Steve does it. For him it makes economic sense. If he grenades a block (which he already has), he has a yard full of suitable blocks to choose from to replace it, and they're "dirt cheap".

For someone only looking to make 750-800 HP, I don't get it. I'd like to see some testing with it in the 800-1200 HP range.

[screamingchief]

Someone please explain this topic to me?

Not taking any sides here,but I'll try and explain as I see this:

It's a cost vs. returns thing,not everybody can afford to run out and drop 3-5K+ on switching over to an aftermarket block combo to get an added maesure of strength,but would easily be able to afford say 2-3 hundred bucks for a girdle if it could add some margin of stability to their stock block combos.

And if that helps keep their combos together for a season or two that might allow them to free up the funds to "step up" to those nice aftermarket pieces then.

Were not all made of cash,and some people here have access to equipment and the time to do this for their own use,and thus possibly some others as well.

Now I know some are going to say stuff like "you cant afford to not use an aftermarket block" or "why would you risk it in the first place?",well just remember,some just dont have the option to consider otherwise.

I know if there were a nice girdle available that was affordable,and did'nt need a ton of work to fit,I'd consider purchasing at least one for my race cars 400,and I'm sure plenty of others would too.

There will always be a market in between the "stock" stuff,and the "best" stuff,and that is the target for this type of product.

I mean is it now a waste of time to put good four bolt caps on a stock block too???

And if I showed up at your shop dude,would refuse to do the work because you thought I were foolish for considering to do so?

Alot of folks already have ALOT of $$$ invested into what they're running currently...

Come on now,last thing anyone here needs is more people looking down at them because of their choices,for whatever reasons,and to have something like that come from a well respected voice within the pontiac community as well...

You must be hangin around too many rich folks running those 10.5" tire cars in your neck of the woods or something,you need to take it easy on us poor old pontiac racers just trying to keep 'em together however we can,till we can afford to upgrade.

In time I'm sure you'll see things move in that direction as the masses start moving to those pieces more and more,and the trickle down affect will happen as those with the $$$$ will sell off their "old" stuff for fresh stuff,so it will end up going that way likely,it just is'nt goign to happen overnight thats all,and some are looking for something to help in the interim,thats all!

[Brian Baker]

Well.....

From someone who has been down this road with a factory block, by the time you add up the cost of adding a lifter valley support, filling the block, installing billet caps, installing this girdle, and all the associated machine work normally involved in any engine build-up deploying these modifications.....you're 2/3rds of the way to the price of an IA-2 block, and you'll still have a weaker block.

[screamingchief]

I totally agree if your starting from scratch it makes no sense,that was the point I was trying to make.

ALOT of folks have already invested in lifter braces,aftermarket caps,filling the block,the machine work,etc. etc.,and they would still appreciate a small measure of increased strength if possible with their current combination...

Now should they just throw that all away?

And others yet are relegated to feeding on the cast-offs of those "have's" for their parts to build their combinations and this might be an option for them as well.

For some reason this discussion always ends up in some kind of weird class warfare kind of thing with some saying just do this or your nuts,and not giving any thought to what another person may or may not be able to afford.

To some folks $1000.00 is a LOT of money!

For them the 3-5K to "step up" is impossible to make happen...

Now should the collective pontiac community just show them "the finger" and point and laugh at them?

Just because they are'nt made of money!

Or should they see it as a potential market to exploit for a possible product to market?

Often we are either part of the problem,or we are part of a solution to the problem.

Sometimes we can be are own worst enemies.

[Brian Baker]

"Who am I?"

"Why am I here?"

[Brian Baker]

I don't view it as a "class warfare" thing.

I view it as racers that have "been there and done that" and tore their s'hit up as a result, who are only advising newcomers to not go down the same path, as it's more expensive in the long run.

It's kind of like your Dad telling you not to do that s'hit that you just gotta' do anyway, because he's "been there and done that" and now knows better...but you're young and think to yourself "what does he know, he's old".

[RAIV55]

Originally Posted by screamingchief

Not taking any sides here,but I'll try and explain as I see this:

It's a cost vs. returns thing,not everybody can afford to run out and drop 3-5K+ on switching over to an aftermarket block combo to get an added maesure of strength,but would easily be able to afford say 2-3 hundred bucks for a girdle if it could add some margin of stability to their stock block combos.

And if that helps keep their combos together for a season or two that might allow them to free up the funds to "step up" to those nice aftermarket pieces then.

Were not all made of cash,and some people here have access to equipment and the time to do this for their own use,and thus possibly some others as well.

Now I know some are going to say stuff like "you cant afford to not use an aftermarket block" or "why would you risk it in the first place?",well just remember,some just dont have the option to consider otherwise.

I know if there were a nice girdle available that was affordable,and did'nt need a ton of work to fit,I'd consider purchasing at least one for my race cars 400,and I'm sure plenty of others would too.

There will always be a market in between the "stock" stuff,and the "best" stuff,and that is the target for this type of product.

I mean is it now a waste of time to put good four bolt caps on a stock block too???

And if I showed up at your shop dude,would refuse to do the work because you thought I were foolish for considering to do so?

Alot of folks already have ALOT of $$$ invested into what they're running currently...

Come on now,last thing anyone here needs is more people looking down at them because of their choices,for whatever reasons,and to have something like that come from a well respected voice within the pontiac community as well...

You must be hangin around too many rich folks running those 10.5" tire cars in your neck of the woods or something,you need to take it easy on us poor old pontiac racers just trying to keep 'em together however we can,till we can afford to upgrade.

In time I'm sure you'll see things move in that direction as the masses start moving to those pieces more and more,and the trickle down affect will happen as those with the $$$$ will sell off their "old" stuff for fresh stuff,so it will end up going that way likely,it just is'nt goign to happen overnight thats all,and some are looking for something to help in the interim,thats all!

SC has a valid point.

Although I'm in contact with high performance parts everyday and have the luxury of working in a machine shop, if it came down to spending 5k on a short block I wouldn't be racing.

As it is now, if I went through a major blowup, providing the heads and cam wasn't trashed I could be running again, just as strong, for less than $700.

Would I prefer running an after market block.... Definately,

Would I prefer a steel crank.... definately,

Would I prefer steel rods..... DEFINATELY!!!!!!

Until more financially solvent, I'm lucky to be racing.

So for guys like me, the main girdle may provide a way to give my junk a new lease on life.

[Brian Baker]

RAIV55...how much power are you making.

[RAIV55]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

RAIV55...how much power are you making.

Estimating 700hp, this engine in current tune hasn't been on the dyno.

motor only 9.72@137 in a 3200# car @ 3000feet.

[screamingchief]

I see that point of view completely Brian,and can agree with it to a degree,but for many they have no other choice but to do things that others would advise against.

For them it's either do it the way they HAVE the ability to,or not do it at all!

Now which way would anyone here choose,sit on the sidelines for two or three years saving up the money to buy a IA2/MRI block to start with,and then wait even longer to be able to afford to actually build it the "right" way.

Or build or buy something they can afford to get to the track with NOW,and worry about "stepping up" later as further funds allow.

I know what I'm going to do,it's what I have to do if I wanna race anytime soon!

Most anybody expected to wait to race that long will probably jump camps and go over to the other marques,where the bottom feeding is better often.

And agian,what about the folks with plenty of money already invested in what they currently are running,they dont deserve a product like this,or dont deserve any consideration.

Should I just throw out my race cars 400 to build an IA2/MR1 combo that will take me years to get together?

The attitude I'm seeing develop by some lately is a "build an IA2/MR1 or your just a chump" kinda deal,and I just dont see thats the case for all situations,many would add something like this girdle in the course of a regular refresh of a currently built combo,as opposed to just tossing that aside and starting from scratch.

My car would be a good example,its a roll bar only car,so it has never been considered for going any faster than 10 ohs,now would I NEED an IA2/MR1 to do that in a well set-up 3000 lb car?

I dont think so.

Sure it would be nice,but if that meant waiting the YEARS it would take for me to be able to afford to build something like that,I'd just blow it off completely.

I'd much rather invest that capital in building another car entirely,one that CAN take advantage of the kind of combination a foundation like that will support, while racing my current combination to get as much seat time as possible to get the reflexs and tuning skills honed so that when I do get to "that level" I hopefully wont end up having any major suprises.

Does any of this make sense to anyone out there?

[Brian Baker]

I agree with your points about "build now, step up later" S-Chief...the problem is, sometimes, this mentality bites the racer in the butt. The key is, knowing your limitiations, both with your budget, and with the hardware you have. You can't reliably run 10's, or 9's with 13 and 12 second hardware, is the point I was trying to make. But you can still go and have fun, if you stay within the limitations of the equipment.

[grnmnstr]

SC, makes sense to me.

[screamingchief]

I agree with your points too Brian.

Like I said,i'm not really taking sides,I can see this from both POV.

Sometimes even when you know your going to get "bitten",you may have no other choice to make to avoid that bite.

But if you can soften that "bite" somehow would it not be worth something to do so?

I think so,and if a few hundred dollars for a girdle would help the 400 in my current race car to hold together for a few years of abuse,it'll allow me to consider something like the IA2/MR1 for the '67 firebird race car project I've got planned,that one will have a cage and suspension to take advantage of a motor like that.

I do agree,you need to look ahead and consider where you plan to be,and consider how you plan to get there.

That's a no-brainer if you asked me.

For me right now money is very tight,but I'm sure it wont always be so bad,and a year or two from now will be much better,so this type of deal makes a fair amount of sense to me right about now.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

And what is the cost of the girdle going to be? Not arguing.

If you need a girdle, as Brain said...... $1,000 isn't a lot of money cause the money you already invested to build to that point and need is is well over the $6,000 mark to begin with.

I look at the overall picture.......
Are you saying just install the girdle over a 2 bolt senerio? What about the stock pan or basic aftermarket pan fit?


No I wouldn't turn the job down, but would explain the cost difference and depending on the power level inform him of the inherent weakness of the Pontiac block, etc. I show customers all the time when they come in what the weak spots are and explain the point of No return.

IA 2 block............ bore it, hone it, deck it, Cam brgs and plugs.................. $3300.00

Now figure up the stock block with "all the goodies".

And remember no matter what you do to a stock block it still can split up the main webbing at any power level over 600 hp. I've seen it!!!!!!
Adding caps and girdles to the understructure of a block won't put the strength back between the cylinders, deck, walls, valley or under the cylinder bores like the aftermarket block.

Sometimes the $1,000 or so difference will save ya $6,000 in fubar'd parts.

Even girdles for women weren't for support. They were for looks. LOL.

Just my opinion. But if they want one. I'll do it. If the hp level is above what I feel the assembly will take I will still do it, but explain the downside and consequences. I guarentee workmanship............ but can never guarantee the parts. That's the manufactures obligation.

[mikeb]

Brian, SC, and Dude all have valid points. I can definitely see adding the brace if you already have a built up stock block as another piece of insurance. The fact remains though that if you are beginning with a stock block after you add up the costs to beef it up with all of the tricks you are getting mighty close to IA2/MR1 territory, and there is still no guarantee as to when/if it'll let go.

For me it's a safety issue. The last thing I want to do is to drive over the crank at the big end of the track while oiling down the slicks. I'm not a big baller so I "get" the point about racing on a shoestring budget. I've been slowly working on putting together my own IA2 combo for a few years now and maybe in the next 18 months or so will have something running. Just need more money

[screamingchief]

What do you propose people do when they have already invested the $6000.00 + you mention in what they run now?

Throw it away because it's not built on an IA2/MR1 foundation...

Oh yeah,just throw in another $3000.00 +,no problem right?

It's real easy to spend someone elses money!

But what do you propose if they dont have that money?

Ultimately the choice is the end user's,and I'm sure many people wish an option like this were available for them to use,regardless of what some others think about their choice to do so.

I'm sure many would look at a product like this as something to try and use to hold them untill they can afford the block upgrade.

But hey who cares about them,too bad if they cant cough up the cash right now for a new block,let those chumps eat cake!

At least thats the "vibe" I'm getting off this...

This just brings up more issues,I myself would'nt even consider putting a cast crank into a nice block like the IA2/MR1 and risk destroying the block by having a crank come apart in it.

Ahhh now your gonna tell me there is no way that'll ever happen,right?

I guess it's just too bad for those unfortunate souls who are'nt made of money,we should just forget about these endeavours altogether...

I've already agreed (several times I might add) that if your building from scratch it does indeed need to be considered much more-so,but the thing nobody wants to face here is that lots of poeple are still running their combos built on stock blocks and they simply cannot afford to make the move to an IA2/MR1 right away.

What about them???

[mikeb]

I think I agreed with you in my post (?) Sorry if that didn't come through.

Originally Posted by mikeb

I can definitely see adding the brace if you already have a built up stock block as another piece of insurance.

[rfb92345]

I've been away for a while. Holy S**T !!, I didn't mean to start a civil war on here. I started out with just an invitation to follow along in our project. I have read all the posts so far and all are valid. I guess we all fall into two categories. Category #1, we go out and buy an IA block and throw money at it and make 1000 HP. Category #2, we convert our hot street car to a race car and power up with what we got. We happen to be in category #2. We are about as far as we want to go with this car and want a little added insurance in the bottom end. The original plan was not to sell these, but I will be willing to do so at a modest profit to help pay for the CAD time. The CNC time and materials is squat, the Cad time is what costs. I hope to have some pics of the 3 main girdle/support soon. We are also thinking of a 4 or 5 main, but fitting under a stock type pan, may be challenging. The 3 main is requiring some massaging. Anyway, that's where were at.......film at 11.

[screamingchief]

Mikeb,I did'nt see your post till after I finished writing mine,so my previous post was kinda directed more to address the previous post by P-dude.

I just think its easy for a person to say "just do this if your smart",but not give a second thought to how they expect this other person to do what they are advising,and without having the sightest clue about this other persons situation.

And that's all my last point was really getting at.

Like I said,it's easy to spend someone elses money!

But you bring up a good example mikeb,you say you been slowly putting together an IA2 combo for a few years now,have you been racing something else in the interim?

Would that not maybe benefit from such a product if you were doing so?

Are you going to use a cast crank in the IA2?

How much $$$$ into the combo so far?

Lots of people cannot,or will not want to wait years to get something together,and will do what they have to so they can race now,even if it ends up being more expensive later,thats just the choice they make to race now!

I just feel that there is no reason to think they dont understand what they're doing,sure that may be the case for a few,but I give many folks the benefit of doubt that they've made the decision based on what their circumstances allow at that time.

I just feel that a product like this could find its niche in this market,thats all.

[screamingchief]

Holy S**T !!, I didn't mean to start a civil war on here.]

No civil war here IMO.

Just some discussion of the merits of a product like this pro and con,nothing ugly or heated from where I'm sitting.

Really I see both sides,unfortunately right now I am not in the position to consider both choices an option,if a well designed and practical girdle were available I would possibly be able to consider using one if it were'nt too expensive or complicated to install.

But for me,right now,there is just no way I could swing the IA2/MR1 as a posssibillity.

And the truth is there are "classes" of racers out there,and nobody can deny its REAL hard to compete with the "class" of racer with seemingly bottomless pockets...

But that has never stopped the "bucks down" racers from trying!