[RAM AIR 1967]

If you look at the W-30 convertible and the RA-4 Judge convertible in 1970 the Judge will be more money. Would like to trade a 1970 W-30 or a 1972 W-30 convertible for a Judge convertible. Looking to buy 1971 W-30 convertible.

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by Jim Rotella

I think in order to make a valid comparison of the 455 Buick, Olds, and Pontiacs high performance engines, you would have to compare 1971-72 engines rather than just looking at the 1970 engine line up. Pontiac chose the Ram Air IV 400 engine to be its top high performance engine in 1970, while Olds and Buick used their 455 motors as their performance flagships. However, in 1971 and 1972 all three auto makers chose a low compression version of their 455 engines to be their top performance motors.

The Buick Stage 1, the Olds W-30, and the Pontiac 455 HO all performed at similar levels on regular fuel in both 1971 and 1972. When all three manufacturers had to work within the same parameters, these engines were very close in terms of power.

As far as current value, you'd have to compare the RA IV to the W-30 in 1970 and then I think their pricing would be very similar. As far as '71 and '72 goes, I think you'll find that the 455 HO, Stage I, and W-30 are also priced in the samel general range in today's musclecar market.

Jim

VERY well said, as always, Jim!

Like Jim, I'd have to surmise that the performance differences between the '71-'72 455HO LeMans/GTO, W-30 Olds and Stage 1 Gran Sports were VERY slight. However, let's not forget that one could still order a LS-6 Chevelle in 1971. And although the CR was dropped from 11.0:1 in 1970 down to 9.0:1 in 1971, it was still rated @ 425 gross HP. I suppose that in 1971 the GM performance leader HAD to be the 1971 SS454 LS-6 Chevelle.

I can't recall what the GROSS HP ratings were for the 1971 W-30's and Stage 1's, nor what the NET HP ratings were for the 1972 W30's. However, the 1972 455HO (@ 300 NET) was rated WELL above the '72 Buick Stage 1 and '72 LS-5 Chevelles, which both had NET HP ratings of 270, IIRC.

Of course, Pontiac trumped EVERYONE - other GM's as well as Ford and Chrysler - with the awesome 455SD. It's too bad the 455SD was restricted to Firebird usage.

[Judge273]

Look at these recent track times for those low comp smog 71 455 HO cars. The mighty 400 RA II and IV's keeps getting more impressive too! In front of the mighty hemi. Even the 326 Lemans beats the W-30 who didn't have a good run.

Factory Stock ET's November 2006

1. Jim Spetzman 1969 Dodge Super Bee 440 12.12@112 mph
2. Bruno Beltrane 1969 Pontiac GTO 400 RAIV 12.28@115 mph
3. Peter Germani 1971 Pontiac GTO 455HO 12.30@112 mph
4. Jim Mino 1968 Pontiac Firebird 400 RAII 12.50@114 mph
5. Chuck Lombardi 1966 Chevrolet Chevelle 396 12.51@111 mph
6. Steve Polimeni 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 LS6 12.67@110 mph
7. Glen Annarumma 1971 Pontiac Trans Am 455HO 12.95@107 mph
8. Larry Wittig 1967 Plymouth GTX 426 Hemi 12.97@111 mph
9. Steve Vanderwall 1969 Ford Mustang 428 Cobra Jet 12.97@106 mph
10. George Buttner 1968 Ford Mustang 428 Cobra Jet 13.03@100 mph (Gonzo's car)
11. Dan Korb 1972 Buick GS 455 Stage 1 13.21@103 mph
12. Chris Giardina 1969 Dodge Charger 440 13.55@103 mph
13. John Payne 1965 Pontiac GTO 389 tripower 13.87@103 mph
14. Bob Klemann 1967 Ford Fairlane GT 427 13.93@103 mph
15. Dom Scorziello 1971 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 LS5 13.93@101 mph
16. John Beilano 1969 Ford Mustang 351 13.97@100 mph
17. Jeff Hargrove 1970 Ford Mustang 428 13.99@96 mph
18. Charles Lombardi 1963 Chevrolet Impala 409 14.01@100 mph
19. Ronald Knight 1970 Plymouth GTX 440 14.08@102 mph
20. Hal Oaks 1967 Chevrolet Belair 327 14.05@96 mph
21. John Freed 1970 Dodge Super Bee 383 14.14@96 mph
22. Ty Tacone 1970 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 14.15@97 mph
23. Bill Gonzo 1968 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 14.17@100 mph
24. John Sweeney 1967 Pontiac Bonneville 428 14.17@97 mph
25. Jeff Ingalls* 1969 Dodge Charger 440 14.32@96 mph
26. Mark Diplato 1972 Chevrolet Corvette 350 14.50@96 mph
27. Frank Pisani 1970 Ford Mustang 351 14.52@94 mph
28. Joe Disanto 1967 Pontiac Tempest 350 14.58@99 mph
29. Evan Stern 1966 Pontiac Lemans 326 14.81@94 mph
30. John Weintraub? 1969 Plymouth Road Runner 383 14.93@97 mph
31. Robert Hill 1969 Oldsmobile 442 W-30 15.07@89 mph
32. Vince Lyons 1968 Mustang (factory racer) 15.80@82 mph (tribute run)
33 Mike Nasi 1970 Plymouth Road Runner? 383 16.34@85 mph
__________________

[P@blo]

Everyone knows an Indian can run like the wind.

Not to take away from the 442 as it's an awesome car for sure but I love my Pontiac's more.

[68addict]

Judge 272, are those times for F.A.S.T.? If so, remember you can stroke your motor for more cubes I think and use some weight savings tricks, but nice job and great time for that 71 GTo with the 455, a truly underrated engine, and my 2nd favorite Goat.

[scott70]

the difference between the pontiac 360 hp and 370 hp 70 455 was the heads,#15's had small valves and pressed studs,#64's had big valves and screw in studs,the valve size alone is more hp.Plus the gto version you could get the 068 cam with a manual trans,again more power over the 360 hp version.Plus all the gto /gp 370 version came with 4 bolt main caps.I bought my 70 455 4 speed bone stock.I tried it at the track a few times and had someone mention to recurve the dist.He helped me do it at that time,(20 years ago)and i remember taking the original advance springs out,they had so much tension,i had to use pliers and pull hard to get them off.(i still have the originals)He told me he couldnt see how the thing would ever total advance.It knocked a few TENTHS just redoing the dist.,something they should have done better at the factory.Ran mid 13's pretty well stock.

[Judge273]

Not the same as FAST. Those were the "factory stock" numbers which allow some "minor" but it does have rules as follows:

"Both classes the cars have to look exactly stock, with NO external aftermarket parts.No tractions bars, stock wheels and tires and sizes.

The Factory Stock class are cars with minimal engine work done, factory camshafts, idling in gear at 900 rpm,stock unmodified intakes , exhaust, carbs ..........your typical car cruise participant with ET's from 12.00 - 16.00 seconds

The FAST class are cars with no aftermarket external parts showing, BUT strokers are allowed, lightweight rods and pistons, ANY internal engine modifications are allowed. ET's range from 13.00 to 10.50
================================================== ===

There is NOTHING to win, NO Money, NO points....NOTHING, except a plaque that shows you participated. This is for Fun not prestige."

Rules here:

http://forums.factorystockmusclecars...rm/f/352100271

But, maybe the rules not as strict as Pure Stock Drags. But, I think the RA IV car competes in both races, and does well, very well. Dan Jensen 71 T-37 455 HO runs a consistent 12.5 too.

[70ra455]

Great information guys. I still believe that prices of the W-30 have far surpassed the RA4 for the most part. There is a guy selling a green RA4 right now with 4spd for much less than 100K. Have you seen it? It was at Norwalk and I believe it was asking 75K with no takers. Am I wrong on the price? I belive it's Green with Saddle interior (non-Judge.)

Oh well ... I'm "stuck" with my '70 455 and I love it!

I've seen 3 455 '70 Convertibles for sale on the internet. One is Yellow with brown interior (auto - 75K), one is gold (auto - 197K), and the other is burgandy (auto with ram air induction - 250K) Not bad prices. I'm interested to see how the other Ram Air induction car does - maybe I'll sell mine and buy a '68 4spd convert and a 67 4spd GP Convert. with money to spare. My thought it that I cannot get kind of money for my car though.

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by scott70

the difference between the pontiac 360 hp and 370 hp 70 455 was the heads,#15's had small valves and pressed studs,#64's had big valves and screw in studs,the valve size alone is more hp.Plus the gto version you could get the 068 cam with a manual trans,again more power over the 360 hp version.Plus all the gto /gp 370 version came with 4 bolt main caps.I bought my 70 455 4 speed bone stock.I tried it at the track a few times and had someone mention to recurve the dist.He helped me do it at that time,(20 years ago)and i remember taking the original advance springs out,they had so much tension,i had to use pliers and pull hard to get them off.(i still have the originals)He told me he couldnt see how the thing would ever total advance.It knocked a few TENTHS just redoing the dist.,something they should have done better at the factory.Ran mid 13's pretty well stock.

The '70 GTO 455 engine was rated 360 HP, no matter TH400 or 4-speed equipped, Ram Air or no. All had cast# 64 big valve heads. The exact same engine was rated 370 HP in the GP, once again with the 64 casting heads. #15 casting heads were full size only, small valve standard engine rated 360 HP. The 370 HP engine was available on fullsize cars as well, with #64 heads, etc.

[P@blo]

Is the #64 head considered a performance head or would a 6X be better ?

[Lloyd-TX]

The #64 cylinder head is a great D-port head, on a 455 or larger engine. 87CC chambers, 2.11/1.77 valves and screw-in studs were all standard fare. Great setup for a pump gas 455+ engine.

Two downsides - it's a farely uncommon and sought-after casting so be prepared to pay for a pair.
The only other issue is that there is a boss "missing" from that casting (and all pre-1971 castings) which allows the use of '71 and later alternator and accessory brackets and pulleys. One can run the later accessory setup without that boss - which has a threaded hole for the alternator thru-bolt, but this destabilzes the accessory mountings and can cause belt flipping or throwing.

[Judge273]

70ra455: The prices are crazy, and I agree that a Baby Blue benchseat poverty capped 70 W-30 HT can get 105K is awfully tall money! The Green 4 sp 70 RA IV was for sale at the GTOAA Nationals in July, and can't get a sale at 88K? It is fully restored numbers matching engine, nicely optioned except for color? Here are some pictures I took of that car.

The same is true for 71-72 GTO 4-speed 455 HO cars, and they would be lucky to break 50K.

[P@blo]

Thanks Lloyd, much appreciated.

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by Judge273

70ra455: The prices are crazy, and I agree that a Baby Blue benchseat poverty capped 70 W-30 HT can get 105K is awfully tall money! The Green 4 sp 70 RA IV was for sale at the GTOAA Nationals in July, and can't get a sale at 88K? It is fully restored numbers matching engine, nicely optioned except for color? Here are some pictures I took of that car.

The same is true for 71-72 GTO 4-speed 455 HO cars, and they would be lucky to break 50K.

IMO, it's all about having the car "in front of" the right buyer at the right time. If that RA IV car is everything it's supposed to be, it should bring near $100K or even more, even in the fall/winter season. Just gotta fine the right buyer.

I paid $52K for my Sundance GTO (455HO / M22, w/ A/C) in May of this year, and was offered $60K before I even had the car in my possession. I believe the "right" buyer would pay $70K-$75K for it right now, and next spring even more.

[68addict]

Thanks Judge 273, now those numbers are even more impressive!!! BTW I love this thread.

[BLKBRD]

Five years ago I sold my 100% numbers matching '70 442 W-30 auto Sebring Yellow on Black for $7500.00.

[gloryrestoparts]

a few misc points/ramblings.

- the W-30 455 is NOT a round port motor. The only round port Olds was I believe the W-43 455 dual overhead cam that never made it to production. I guess you can compare that to the RA V, although RA V pieces/motors are out there. I think there is only 1 or 2 W-43 motors out there and they are in museums.

- In the list that Mike (Judge273) posted, the 69 W-30, those cars are PIGS and you can't compare that to ANY Pontiac/Buick/AMC etc. It's apples and oranges in the truest sense. The 68 and 69 W-30 used a COMPLETELY different 400 Olds motor than the 66-67 W-30 400 and obviously the 70-72 455 W-30. The 68 and 69 W-30 cars are horrible for performance. Those small bore 400 were an attempt at emissions as Olds sunk their engineering into the W-31 350 in 68 (aka 68 Ram Rod). Once they saw how phenominal those cars were from a performance standpoint, they started marketing the W-31 package in 69 more. And the same with 70. (I have a 69 W-31 and possibly the only powder blue car out there. I'm also building a 70 W-31 that will be a lot more towards the NHRA limits for Factory/Pure Stock so I can go pick on some big blocks :-)))) eventually I'll do a Poncho for Pure Stock or FAST)

Mike, great info and times you posted. I get the feeling you REALLY want to take one of your cars to the Factory Stock or Pure Stock race. If you are interested, there is a FAST/Factory Stock race in Martin, MI in June. I have a truck and trailer and my W-31 won't be ready for Martin. Stanton, hopefully thats a different story. You'll probably see Dan in Martin too. Let me know and we can work out the details. I'm also trying to convince a friend to bring out his 62 GP 389 tri-power auto car.

[scott70]

Originally Posted by Lloyd-TX

The '70 GTO 455 engine was rated 360 HP, no matter TH400 or 4-speed equipped, Ram Air or no. All had cast# 64 big valve heads. The exact same engine was rated 370 HP in the GP, once again with the 64 casting heads. #15 casting heads were full size only, small valve standard engine rated 360 HP. The 370 HP engine was available on fullsize cars as well, with #64 heads, etc.

Ive always thought that was screwy the way they rated them.The gto engine had the same 360 rating as the #15 headed 455 in a bonneville,ect.And yes,the gp had the same engine as the gto but rated at 370....for what reason??????Obviously to boost power over the standard 360 hp ,70 455(#15 head),they made the better #64 head but kept the same 360 rating as the standard 455 .They either had their reasons or somebody wasnt payin attention.

[Thumpin455_GTO]

Interesting, since my friend I got my 70 GTO from also has a 70 455 HO 4 speed GTO and a 70 442 W30 4 speed vert. He paid $6k for the GTO a while back, and somewhere around $10k for the Olds. Havent talked to him in almost 10 years, wonder if he still has them.

Also the price of a car is completely dependent on what someone is willing and able to pay for it. If some of us had a few billion layin around like Gates how much would you pay for a nice RA IV car? Leaves us poor guys out of it..

[gto4door]

Makes me sick just to tell you this because now I wish I still had these cars. Back in 1995 I sold my very nice 75K orig mile '70 W-30 442 (auto) for $12,500 (quite a bit back then). When I was in the process of selling, I actually had two collectors beating down my door just to buy the car. In 1999, I sold my 83k orig mile '70 RA IV GTO (4spd) for $15,000 (still quite a bit back then). I had a lot of "tire kickers", but really nobody desparately wanting the car.