Would you buy the New GTO if they changed the styling?

[455HOGT37]

Originally Posted by HUMBLER

Ha, and what's the problem exactly? No car today exists in that capacity, nor any product for that matter. Well except for those shown on Cliff Claven's show! Ha. Last I heard a Mazda comes off the Mustang line so don't even go there.

My 70 is all Pontiac and that is great and I can enjoy it in that manner.

Actually, I'd be surprised if something even on it wasn't made overseas, anyone privy to if all parts on our classic GTO's were actually made solely in America?

The parts/components haven't been exclusively "American" for decades, but the manufacture certainly has been American. Though that's changing too. However, that is a far, far cry, in my mind from a simple rebadge of another division's product. If GM took the Corvette and stuck a Holden badge on it for sale down under, would you suddenly decide the resulting product was manufactured by Holden?

The 04-06s were imported and sold, but certainly not manufactured by Pontiac... That is a fact. You bring all the tooling over here to NA and assemble the cars with UAW employees, working on a Pontiac assembly line, wearing coveralls that say "PMD" on the pocket - THEN I might call it a Pontiac.

[Matador-IV]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

Simple, the 04-06 "GTO" was built entirely by Holden workers in a Holden plant, on a continent on the other side of the world. This manufacturing line was not even exclusive to the "GTO", it also concurrently spit out Chevrolet, Vauxhal and Holden versions of the same car. There is nothing Pontiac about the car we got. I'm guessing even the red arrowheads were applied by people who's paycheck says GMH, rather than PMD.

Lets assume for a minute....the next GTO has awsome looks,performance and price, but it shares the camaro chassis and its built at the Oshawa, Canada plant (#1 plant in N. America). Would you consider this car a Pontiac?

Oh, And nobody's paycheck says PMD anymore...GM is a global Co. that acts and operates as ONE.

[455HOGT37]

BTW,

I work for Lockheed. We "manufacture" and sell the F-16. However, if you make the mistake of telling the wrong person that the F-16 is a "Lockheed" airplane, there is a pretty good chance you will get a punch in the face.

[455HOGT37]

Originally Posted by Matador-IV

Lets assume for a minute....the next GTO has awsome looks,performance and price, but it shares the camaro chassis and its built at the Oshawa, Canada plant (#1 plant in N. America). Would you consider this car a Pontiac?

Oh, And nobody's paycheck says PMD anymore...GM is a global Co. that acts and operates as ONE.

Depends... Does this car already exist as another mature model that has never before been sold to this market, assembled by a division that is unknown to the American market, and only an arrowhead and grille distinguish it from the "parent" product? Then no. However, if it is built for the American market by an American division in North America, the sheetmetal styled to match accurate divisional styling, then I'll offer a less than enthusiastic yes.

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

Depends... Does this car already exist as another mature model that has never before been sold to this market, assembled by a division that is unknown to the American market, and only an arrowhead and grille distinguish it from the "parent" product? Then no. However, if it is built for the American market by an American division in North America, the sheetmetal styled to match accurate divisional styling, then I'll offer a less than enthusiastic yes.

Well Gm doesn't opperate like that anymore. GM will be "importing" many more models from THEIR divisions into the United States market. Just the style of business that is being performed.

I guess according to you the BMW Z3/Z4 are not real BMW's because they are assembled in South Carolina rather than Germany.

[HUMBLER]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

The parts/components haven't been exclusively "American" for decades, but the manufacture certainly has been American. Though that's changing too. However, that is a far, far cry, in my mind from a simple rebadge of another division's product. If GM took the Corvette and stuck a Holden badge on it for sale down under, would you suddenly decide the resulting product was manufactured by Holden?

The 04-06s were imported and sold, but certainly not manufactured by Pontiac... That is a fact. You bring all the tooling over here to NA and assemble the cars with UAW employees, working on a Pontiac assembly line, wearing coveralls that say "PMD" on the pocket - THEN I might call it a Pontiac.

We could alter our spin all day long and argue semantics. You are saying it's not a Pontiac. I disagree because that's the dealer I bought it from and to recap GM + RWD + V8 + Midsize car = Pontiac GTO.

[455HOGT37]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

...I guess according to you the BMW Z3/Z4 are not real BMW's because they are assembled in South Carolina rather than Germany...

Geography is but one element. If the BMW model in your example was in fact a rebadged VW Beetle, built in a VW plant, then no, not a "real" BMW.

[Matador-IV]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

Depends... Does this car already exist as another mature model that has never before been sold to this market,

As stated it would share parts with the new camaro being built at the Oshawa plant, Canada. Would you accept a Pontiac product built by CAW as opposed to UAW? Or, would you see it as just a rebadged camaro imported from another country?

[455HOGT37]

Originally Posted by Matador-IV

As stated it would share parts with the new camaro being built at the Oshawa plant, Canada. Would you accept a Pontiac product built by CAW as opposed to UAW? Or, would you see it as just a rebadged camaro imported from another country?

I'll tell you what, I see a big difference between switching a nameplate on an existing car, and puting a unique body on common chassis architecture. Platform sharing does not always mean the car is the same except for the rubber nose. You put a Pontiac badge on the new Camaro, then you have a new Camaro with a Pontiac badge.

[455HOGT37]

Originally Posted by HUMBLER

We could alter our spin all day long and argue semantics. You are saying it's not a Pontiac. I disagree because that's the dealer I bought it from and to recap GM + RWD + V8 + Midsize car = Pontiac GTO.

OK, then answer me this one thing and I'll let it lie:

Corvette exported to Oz with a Holden nose... Is it a Holden, or a Chevy?

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

Pontiac is still Pontiac. There are a LOT of unique cars that only Pontiac has and are not shared with any other North American divisions.

I would just say look forward to more global engineering and car sharing. This isn't the 60's anymore.


GTO unique to NA. Shared with Holden.
G6 Sedan-Shared with Chevy
G6 Coup-Unique to NA
G6 Vert-Unique to NA
GP-Shared with Chevy/Buick
Torrent-Shared with Chevy
Solstice-Shared with Saturn
Vibe-Shared with Toyota
G8 will be unique to NA-Shared with Holden.

I would tend to think that the sixties was the last time there wasnt that much part sharing. A Pontiac was unique and in many many cases, not unlike any other brand. As was Buick, as was Olds and such. It wasnt unitl the mid to late seventies that the 'Corporate Motor" was used along with sheet metal.

So your statement should be - This isnt the 70's anymore. But I would tend to think that part sharing and such was at its worst in the 80's. And maybe my statement about the grills isnt such an issue anymore.

GM still does this with their truck line though. Look at the minni vans and the Torrent/Chevy sibling.

[Tripower455]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

BTW, since when has the Pontiac GTO been a 2+2? All my real GTOs were 5 passenger vehicles. Firebirds and Mustangs are 2+2 configuration, not the A bodies.

I guess my '66 isn't a real GTO either. It only seats 2 adults in the back, same as my '04........

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Tripower455

I guess my '66 isn't a real GTO either. It only seats 2 adults in the back, same as my '04........

You can fit two adults in the back of a 66?? They must be short.

[HUMBLER]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

OK, then answer me this one thing and I'll let it lie:

Corvette exported to Oz with a Holden nose... Is it a Holden, or a Chevy?

Holden of course, what's your point?

[Tripower455]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

You can fit two adults in the back of a 66?? They must be short.

I was responding to the guy that said "real" GTOs were 5 seaters. I can only assume he meant 3 adults across in the back, since "real" GTOs have buckets up front (and floor shifters, and yes, I know bench seats were an option... ever seen one?).......

I can only fit 2 adults across the back in my '66 ('vert).

FWIW, the '04 is far more comfortable in the back seat than the '66 too, once you're in it!

[455HOGT37]

Originally Posted by HUMBLER

Holden of course, what's your point?

The point has been made...

Well, even by that line of reasoning, I have a Holden. It's back from the body shop with a Holden bumper, grille, and badge. All arrowheads are removed from the body now.

[455HOGT37]

Originally Posted by Tripower455

I was responding to the guy that said "real" GTOs were 5 seaters. I can only assume he meant 3 adults across in the back, since "real" GTOs have buckets up front (and floor shifters, and yes, I know bench seats were an option... ever seen one?).......

I can only fit 2 adults across the back in my '66 ('vert).

FWIW, the '04 is far more comfortable in the back seat than the '66 too, once you're in it!

The 2+2 designation refers to the back seats being almost useless (think RX-7, Porsche 911, Nissan Z), though present. This differs somewhat from a 4 seat designation.

I don't know about the 66, but my 67 GTO (with 65 back seats, BTW) had a position for 3 in back. And I certainly had 5 people in my car at various times. So I stand by my statement that 2+2 is not a defining characteristic of "Pontiac GTO". All GTOs built by Pontiac ("real" GTOs), had AT LEAST five seating positions, and the A-Body coupes could cary up to six (like my GT-37).

I will wholeheartedly agree that the back seats of the 04-06 are very comfortable and roomy, even for adults. You just don’t want to try getting back there in a rain storm, because by the time the seat motors forward and you have performed the gymnastic routine to get in, you will be soaked to the skin.

[HUMBLER]

I'm in a state of disbelief...

Yes let's focus on being able to cram 3 in the back seat. Don't you know 3's a crowd? Ignore the RWD, V8, Midsize features which is the whole point and justification of the GTO nameplate.

You saying the XLR doesn't have any merit?! No difference from a Cadillac Vette and a Holden Vette...

Oh and let me get this straight, you just rebadged a Pontiac. So it is ok rebadging then? Ha, JK.

[Tripower455]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

The 2+2 designation refers to the back seats being almost useless (think RX-7, Porsche 911, Nissan Z), though present. This differs somewhat from a 4 seat designation.

Yup. The Holden GTO isn't a 2+2........ The back seats aren't almost useless, like in a Camaro, Firebird or Mustang. This is one of the reasons I got rid of my Formula... My daughter was getting too big to sit in the back "seat" of it!

I don't know about the 66, but my 67 GTO (with 65 back seats, BTW) had a position for 3 in back.

My '66 doesn't, as it's a convertible. No room or position for the third in the middle. Certainly no more room than my '04.

And I certainly had 5 people in my car at various times. So I stand by my statement that 2+2 is not a defining characteristic of "Pontiac GTO". All GTOs built by Pontiac ("real" GTOs), had AT LEAST five seating positions, and the A-Body coupes could cary up to six (like my GT-37).

It seems that this statement either isn't correct, or my '66 isn't a "real" GTO...... I can cram 3 people in the back of both my GTOs too.

I will wholeheartedly agree that the back seats of the 04-06 are very comfortable and roomy, even for adults. You just don’t want to try getting back there in a rain storm, because by the time the seat motors forward and you have performed the gymnastic routine to get in, you will be soaked to the skin.

The back seat ingress/egress is one of the 2 things I really don't like about the '04-'06. It would be far better to have a MANUAL release for the seat back that allowed it to quickly slide forward. The electric deal is a PIA as it takes so long for it to slide forward, then back.

It still doesn't make it a 2+2....... My Formula, which WAS a 2+2, wasn't that much easier to get into the back seat, and once there had no legroom whatsoever. I could not sit with my legs in front of me in the back of an F body. That's a 2+2...... The '04 has more legroom in the back than the '66 does. An adult can comfortably sit back there on long trips. You can't do that in a 2+2.......

[455HOGT37]

Originally Posted by HUMBLER

I'm in a state of disbelief...

Yes let's focus on being able to cram 3 in the back seat. Don't you know 3's a crowd? Ignore the RWD, V8, Midsize features which is the whole point and justification of the GTO nameplate...

Just expanding on the 2+2 designation in general, and 66 GTOs in particular, that's all. This wasn't answering you anyway... we agree, remember?

Originally Posted by HUMBLER

You saying the XLR doesn't have any merit?! No difference from a Cadillac Vette and a Holden Vette....

Have you seen a XLR? It is hardly a Vette with a Caddy badge. The difference between that pair and the Monaro/Pontiac GTO is night and day.

Originally Posted by HUMBLER

Oh and let me get this straight, you just rebadged a Pontiac. So it is ok rebadging then? Ha, JK.

No, I RESTORED a Holden... Now the "manufactured by" plate under the hood matches the badge on the grill