[MCronkGTO]

I will make a couple more comments.

First, you could get a 67 GTO 2 door post coupe, about 7,500 were made. Second, don't take the PHS paperwork as gospel. I work in multimedia/graphics and with todays graphic software tools anyone with a decent scanner and Photo Shop can alter documents with amazing results. This is driving banks crazy with fake checks, wire transfers, etc... In fact I think Jim Mattison of PHS commented he has even seen results that would have fooled him. You need to do more research. Check all the numbers, engine, transmission, sheet metal, date codes, etc... these will at least give you a better idea of the cars history and you can make an informed decision on whether or not to purchase and what it is worth.

Now here is the thing I really don't understand. Why do people feel they have to take a car and make it something it is not? I would appreciate a very nice Lemans more than I would a tired and beat GTO. What is wrong with a Tempest or Lemans? Why does a nice GTO have to become a Judge? In a sea of GTO's a comparitively restored Lemans or Tempest stands out and draws attention. As some have pointed out a Lemans or Tempest is very similar to a GTO and the Judge package was just an option on the GTO. So why not enjoy the car as it was born and do whatever modifications suit you. Just don't call it something it never was, that is what causes all the controversy.

[dr-doug]

My thoughts exactly. Here's a little grammer for you guys.

Clone, A genetic duplicate of an organism(living thing)

Copy, imitation of an original

Tribute, an expression of gratitude or honor

Pseudo, false

Fake, something false give a false appearance of

Which description best pertains to these cars that were not built originally the way they appear, according to "Websters"?......DW

[richmas5]

listen there are two different concerns here,first if you build a clone and then sell you have an obligation to tell that person what it is.second its your car you build it as you see fit,my opinion a car is meant to drive and enjoy,not to put in a museum and look at it,a painting is meant for that.everyones situation is different,to those who can afford a real deal judge god bless them ,to those that cant ,or just want to build a clone god bless them to,again its your car,what I dislike is someone looking down saying HA HA I got it you dont,that reminds me of a littltle spoil brat with a big lollipop saying to the other kid ,you want some ,while laughing at him ,you cant have it.all these 40 plus old cars,every car is numbers matching,you never here numbers correct,let me tell you at least half are either rebodys,aftermarket parts or restamps of engine parts,so people in glass houses should not cast stones,and to the other half of numbers matching cars out there ,more power to you restoring everything down to the last nut and bolt,people who love there pontiacs, my hats off to you

[bobslilgto]

Hello all and GREEN70JUDGE, That's my ad on classical, and I would like to know what is wrong with making a car they way you want. I have 5 Judges and allways wanted a 70 orbit car which I did find and know the Lemans is now for sale. What is wrong with making my Lemans a orbit Judge look alike till I found one? I don't think your old enough to own a Pontiac. Grow up! Thank you all

[bobslilgto]

Hello all and GREEN70JUDGE, That's my ad on classical, and I would like to know what is wrong with making a car they way you want. I have 5 Judges and allways wanted a 70 orbit car which I did find and know the Lemans is now for sale. What is wrong with making my Lemans a orbit Judge look alike till I found one? I don't think your old enough to own a Pontiac. Grow up! Thank you all:

[Greg Reid]

Man, don't you guys think he's had enough? He apologized a page and a half ago. I think he got the message.

[napster]

Greg,

I totally agree with you. I also own a 1970 Judge clone. I accept his apology.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w135/jpnap/13_G.jpg

Nap

[Greg Reid]

NICE '70 Napster..Very nice.

[enjoytheride7072]

I'm here to beat the dead horse one more time. I too, turned 16 eight years ago, and I was obsessed with old muscle since that day. I agree with the previous post, that our generation loves the hondas and the mitsus, and what's a poor boy to do whenever it's a big dog world out there. We clone.

It's not so much cloning on my behalf. I took a 72 Chevelle SS 350 and dumped a big-block in it, and my 70 Lemans has an endura bumper and new sheetmetal on the way. The Chevelle's a 500 horse ground pounder, and the GTO will be a little more docile, but it'll still sound, look, and run wicked.

But, what burns me are these guys who come into my uncle's shop and precede to tell stories of how they used to hot rod these cars when they were younger, and how it'd 'do wheelies' in stock configuation, and how fast these cars were. These types are usually of the middle-to-upper- managerial or state police profession, who weren't even remotely interested in hot rodding or turning wrenches, and typically are nerds with a mid-life and/or self-esteem complex. Then they take their car that took X amount of dollars to restore with numbers matching junk, trailer it to the car shows, and get a trophy for their efforts, and just use these cars as 401K trading cards. Not me, I pound the things hard on the street, shine 'em up, and kill #'s Matching trailer queens in muscle car classes at all the local shows... and they, the grown men that they are, cry like babies about how much money they have invested, and blah blah blah.

These people who are only concerned with the worth of a car need to get out of our hobby pronto. As far as I'm concerned, they are just fairweather car guys, and will probably dump the car whenever they're not the 'in' investment. I'm not saying that it's not good to preserve the rare 'museum piece' muscle cars, and I probably wouldn't go out and pound an original RAIV Judge... ok, maybe a little...

I kind of rambled, but please guys, leave us people with empty pockets alone. We're just as big of this hobby as you guys are, well, even bigger.

[napster]

Well said!

P.S.- Greg Reid & gto4evr - Thanks for the nice comments.

Nap

[racerboy]

Originally Posted by enjoytheride7072

Then they take their car that took X amount of dollars to restore with numbers matching junk, trailer it to the car shows, and get a trophy for their efforts, and just use these cars as 401K trading cards. Not me, I pound the things hard on the street, shine 'em up, and kill #'s Matching trailer queens in muscle car classes at all the local shows... and they, the grown men that they are, cry like babies about how much money they have invested, and blah blah blah.

Just because someone chooses to restore a car, as opposed to cutting it up into a racecar, doesn't mean they are any less "into" the hobby then you. It is the restoration business that has kept this hobby alive (remember who sponsors this site?). The hobby is big enough for all types (restorers, clones, racers, etc.).

[MCronkGTO]

All you guys that think rebadging a car (putting Judge decals on a GTO or Lemans) is perfectly ok because the PHS paperwork will easily identify the car. WRONG! In this day and age of six figures prices and the ease of altering the PHS documents, don't cry foul when you get burned. Why do you think most people protect the VIN#'s? Just like credit card fraud if someone get's your VIN it IS possible to get PHS documents and in some states a lost title paperwork. There are sources that will create a body tag for you too. Now someone has cloned your real Judge using your VIN#, guess what happens next.

MarkC

[gto4evr]

Let it GO!!!!!! To all you guys protecting the 2nd future owners of clones: what are you doing about the guys buying postage stamps and reselling them as unused originals after they re-gum them? Putting new rugs into a water damaged house and flipping it as "excellent condition"??? I don't hear anyone screaming about that!!! You've taken up the torch for fraud protection on one out of an infinite number of potential fraud scams out there. It's up to the BUYER if he's willing to pay XX for a car, whether he likes it for what it is or is buying it for an investment, the responsibility to protect oneself from the sharks out there lies solely with the buyer. I DEFINITELY do not advocate cloning for profit, but it's also not my responsibility to protect every guy on the planet with a wallet from making an uninformed decision. Should I feel bad for him if he's buying that "Judge" from a grieving widow for $8,000 because he thinks he's going to make a killing on the resale? he's borkering the deal because he plans on pocketing the difference and then finds out he jumped the gun without running the PHS because of his OWN greed? So his greed is okay, but the greed of the 2nd seller isn't, all because someone built a beautiful clone and shouldn't have been allowed to according to you? Send a letter to Pontiac and complain to them for making the parts interchangeable. If it wasn't for that, this wouldn't be an issue now would it? Anyone ever seen a Catalina cloned into a Judge?

MOVE ON...Next topic PLEASE!!!!

PS, Napster, NICE car!!

[pontiacpetey]

Originally Posted by MCronkGTO

Now here is the thing I really don't understand. Why do people feel they have to take a car and make it something it is not? I would appreciate a very nice Lemans more than I would a tired and beat GTO. What is wrong with a Tempest or Lemans? Why does a nice GTO have to become a Judge? In a sea of GTO's a comparitively restored Lemans or Tempest stands out and draws attention. As some have pointed out a Lemans or Tempest is very similar to a GTO and the Judge package was just an option on the GTO. So why not enjoy the car as it was born and do whatever modifications suit you. Just don't call it something it never was, that is what causes all the controversy.

As a Lemans owner I have to say AMEN to that.

[gto4evr]

This thread will NEVER die....(especially if I keep posting to it!)

Here's a question for you guys.....Since clones never make the grade in your eyes, what do you say to the 400 pound girl that joins the gym, gets herself trim, learns how to really primp herself up and wins a beauty pagent? "Sorry miss, you're not really a prime example of female beauty....according to your trim tag you weigh 400 pounds and are not a real blonde. Please return your crown on your way out." Then we'll all boo her off the stage because she should have been content being 400 pounds and should have enjoyed it. Then we'll shoot her because her name was really Erma, not Michelle.

Also, just because someone clones a car, doesn't mean they don't like Lemans' too. I happen to also have a stock 71 Lemans and a 67 Lemans

I think I'll name my '67 Erma.......