[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by BVR421

On the dynomajig we could see actual gains from shaped spacers and bigger carb. The HP gains were a joke cost wise, but thats not where you want to look for benefits. We could see a much smoother fuel curve thru the pull with a shaped spacer but they only seem to have a beneficial effect when air velocity is sky high? Or was it when the MASS of air/fuel charge became dense enough to resist the vacuum in the port? I dont think my 482 cared one way or the other with a 1050 cfm carb. The shaped spacer really seemed to stand out under the extensively modified early 8896 1140cfm Im not real sharp on this stuff but it was easy to see on the dyno readouts.
The Victor had all the tricks to herd air around.
I think when you get so big with a single carb the air/fuel charge mass resists the vacuum of the port and would rather lay down on the turtle. A little bit like trying to divert my large mass from the fridge to the workshop. Its easier for me to stop at the fridge but thats not where I need to be. Its my impression thats where a shaped spacer shines, getting the now heavy charge moving off in the right direction right out of the throttle bores.
Doesnt necessarily translate to bigger HP number but better brake specific numbers indicating more fuel being burned more completely.
This is all somewhat static testing, put the car on the track there may be effects not obvious on the dyno.
Likewise, what is it you want the spacer to do? Increase plenum volume? Promote directionallity?
I dont see how you can make anything useful of other peoples spacer deals unless you just like taking a poll or promoting discussion (8-)

Looking for generalizations to see what works to try rather then spending boo coo on what doesn't work for 90% of the racers.

Poeple ask questions in here all day long about combos and get answers that won't apply to their cars, but people respond in a positive manner. Just looking for info.

But........ If spacers don't work then why are there sooooooooo many developed for the masses??????????????

Any info can be useful info.............. if thought out properly. That's what makes some builders better then others.

I do have the ability to pick and choose and sort out info. LOL. Thanks.

[Scott Rex]

[QUOTE=PONTIAC DUDE]That's what I'm talking about. Yes I'm interested. Jack told me his car picked up too with them. His dad's car realy picked up on the chassis dyno from what I hear too ?????

How ya want to get em here? E-mail me. Thanks, Ken.

[QUOTE]

I'll send them to the address on your website on Monday.

[BVR421]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Looking for generalizations to see what works to try rather then spending boo coo on what doesn't work for 90% of the racers.

Poeple ask questions in here all day long about combos and get answers that won't apply to their cars, but people respond in a positive manner. Just looking for info.

But........ If spacers don't work then why are there sooooooooo many developed for the masses??????????????
I do have the ability to pick and choose and sort out info. LOL. Thanks.

I didn't think you would ask if you didn't want answers (of which I have none)
carb spacers for the masses???
I think most carb spacers are sold because you can get one at your local shop or summit and install on a Sat afternoon. Doesn't mean you need one LOL. Kind of like MSD bugzappers and one wire alternators and K&N air filters.

[gtofreek]

The man I work for, Jeff Koerner, grinds the 1", four hole phenolic spacers a certain way that the Super Sucker and others started copying. He started doing this years ago when he worked with Norm Schenk from Compitition Fuel Systems. They gained 10 HP on a SB Chevy with the first one they did. He ground one for a customers dominator he built and it picked up the flow on the dominator from 1215 cfm to 1341 cfm! 126 cfm with just a specially ground spacer. It gets rid of the dead air space directly below the throttle plates. The extra 126 cfm's of flow may not make any more HP though if the engine doesn't need the extra flow. In this particular case the engine only needed 900 cfm so the spacer didn't really make any more power since the carb itself was more than enough for the engine by itself. We tested another CNC cut tapered spacer[I think it was a Wilson spacer] with a 950 HP Holley and it picked up 43 cfm. Jeff's 4150 spacer on the same carb. picked it up 75 CFM. He's really good at grinding the spacers. They help more so on undercarbureted engines than engines with enough carb. They always help with fuel distribution though.

[MACNICOLRACING]

Ken, I have a 1" Super Sucker that I tried and it picked up the car .04 in the 1/8 but lost .02 of them in the 1/4. I think my problem not enough hood clearance. I also ran into consistancy problems on the throttle stop, took it off and problem fixed. I think if I had more hood clearance and played around with jetting and air bleeds I could have sorted it out. By the way it's for sale.

[Gaby Labiosa]

Dude and others:

On our particular combo (nearly 900hp, 467", 8100rpm) our tapered spacer is worth quite a bit. I don't want to talk about how much , but it also depends on the manifold work..

On milder, 9 sec Pontiacs that I help out, it also helps too.

There have been several magazine articles about our spacers, most gain between 8-12hp on mild combos.

But the dyno won't tell you how it helps accelerate off the gear change, how much quicker/cleaner the car goes on the two-step after the spacer install, or with the better distribution down the track now the motor can be tuned to MAKE more power by having better distribution..

Most "engine masters" contestants and winners use our spacers.

Most people don't know this, but Keith Wilson came up with, and made tapered spacers BY HAND for HVH in the early to mid 80's, before they started marketing their own version with a fancy name---"super sucker". All of a sudden, they claim they are the first and best tapered spacer?? Go figure..

Feel free to call me at Wilson's, I will elaborate on spacer function further.

[Tom Vaught]

Jeeze Gaby, your spacer deal with the "acceleration" comment sounds like your manifold work. It doesn't always show-up on the dyno, doesn't necessarily show up on the flow bench, but your intakes are faster on the NASCAR tracks on the front straightaway and the back straightaway (kind of like two long dragstrips,etc).

I was not aware that Keith made the early HVH parts but it doesn't surprise me.

Tom V.

ps I need to talk to you and Keith and send you some pics. E-mail address you want me to send the stuff to?

[harry k]

have dynoed many customer race cars and including my race 467ci engine with so many different spacers including Wilson's 1.50" tapered spacer,

there are gains of 6 to 9 rwhp around the power band with wilson taper 1.5" spacer over victor w/1" cloverleaf spacer (one spacer only)

next test was again victor w/ two 1" inch spacers this time (one is edlebrock's cloverleaf alluminum and other TFS phonelic cloverleaf )
the results were within 3-4 rwhp here and there on the graph comparable to wilsons 1.5" tapered .
same results adding TFS over Wilson,while TFS phonelic costs $40 and Wilsons direct from them almost $200 .


bottom line is: on a 600rwhp engine adding almost 10rwhp is NOT noticble at the track
noticeble only at your wallet

http://www.myspace.com/hkmotorsportsdynoshop
official http://pontiacdragdays.com/Sponsors.htm dyno sponsor

[Tom Vaught]

A 600 RWHP engine is not typical of the average Pontiac racer
on this board. Many would be happy with 600 real engine HP.

A ten HP change on a 350 hp engine might get you .07 in et
and .61 mph on a 3500# light GTO.

A ten hp change, I agree, will be harder to pick out on a 2500# 750 engine hp/ 600 rwhp drag car. a couple of hundredths in et and mph. I will take all of the ten hp
items that you want to ignore anyday. At some point I will see all of those 10 hp items added up and WILL be faster than you everytime in competition.

JMO

Tom V.

ps You will never be a National Champion when you give away hp so easily.

[Tom Vaught]

A 600 RWHP engine is not typical of the average Pontiac racer
on this board. Many would be happy with 600 real engine HP.

A ten HP change on a 350 hp engine might get you .07 in et
and .61 mph on a 3500# light GTO.

A ten hp change, I agree, will be harder to pick out on a 2500# 750 engine hp/ 600 rwhp drag car. a couple of hundredths in et and mph. I will take all of the ten hp
items that you want to ignore anyday. At some point I will see all of those 10 hp items added up and WILL be faster than you everytime in competition.

JMO

Tom V.

ps You will never be a National Champion when you give away hp so easily.

[Gaby Labiosa]

If you use a 1.5" tapered spacer on top of a cloverleaf spacer, you are not getting the whole picture. The manifold top MUST be cut out in order to see most gains.

You can use the 1" tapered on top of the cloverleaf.

Most people having an all out, Victor/dominator combo would LOVE an extra 10hp. Average power and acceleration down the track would improve also..

Again, Tom you are correct again!

Ten hp might just give you close to a tenth in a slower car.

On higher hp cars with a Victor manifold, you might see less, sometimes, even MORE.. On a Victor/Pontiac, the distance from the carb to the plenum is small, compared to other "race" manifolds.

Most race engines that can stand more plenum volume will have the added benefit of having more distance from the plenum floor, allowing the air to slow down and turn to the outside runners. The tapered spacer's angles help the air/fuel make that turn, therefore helping distribution.

If thought out properly, that turtle thing that some people swear by WILL NOT BE NEEDED if the spacer/manifold/carb booster/emulsion package is correct.

If people start to analyze their own engine programs, pick up 10hp here, 10 hp over there, etc. They will end up with a more efficient package that will run FASTER that most people with the same engine combination!! Just as class guys such as Langer, Rex, Gaydosh, etc.

We dropped .4 tenths and gained 5 mph with the SAME engine in our low 8 sec car, just small increments at a time..

JMO

Tom, my email address is [email protected].

[Gaby Labiosa]

If you use a 1.5" tapered spacer on top of a cloverleaf spacer, you are not getting the whole picture. The manifold top MUST be cut out in order to see most gains.

You can use the 1" tapered on top of the cloverleaf.

Most people having an all out, Victor/dominator combo would LOVE an extra 10hp. Average power and acceleration down the track would improve also..

Again, Tom you are correct again!

Ten hp might just give you close to a tenth in a slower car.

On higher hp cars with a Victor manifold, you might see less, sometimes, even MORE.. On a Victor/Pontiac, the distance from the carb to the plenum is small, compared to other "race" manifolds.

Most race engines that can stand more plenum volume will have the added benefit of having more distance from the plenum floor, allowing the air to slow down and turn to the outside runners. The tapered spacer's angles help the air/fuel make that turn, therefore helping distribution.

If thought out properly, that turtle thing that some people swear by WILL NOT BE NEEDED if the spacer/manifold/carb booster/emulsion package is correct.

If people start to analyze their own engine programs, pick up 10hp here, 10 hp over there, etc. They will end up with a more efficient package that will run FASTER that most people with the same engine combination!! Just as class guys such as Langer, Rex, Gaydosh, etc.

We dropped .4 tenths and gained 5 mph with the SAME engine in our low 8 sec car, just small increments at a time..

JMO

Tom, my email address is [email protected].

[Gaby Labiosa]

If you use a 1.5" tapered spacer on top of a cloverleaf spacer, you are not getting the whole picture. The manifold top MUST be cut out in order to see most gains.

You can use the 1" tapered on top of the cloverleaf.

Most people having an all out, Victor/dominator combo would LOVE an extra 10hp. Average power and acceleration down the track would improve also..

Again, Tom you are correct again!

Ten hp might just give you close to a tenth in a slower car.

On higher hp cars with a Victor manifold, you might see less, sometimes, even MORE.. On a Victor/Pontiac, the distance from the carb to the plenum is small, compared to other "race" manifolds.

Most race engines that can stand more plenum volume will have the added benefit of having more distance from the plenum floor, allowing the air to slow down and turn to the outside runners. The tapered spacer's angles help the air/fuel make that turn, therefore helping distribution.

If thought out properly, that turtle thing that some people swear by WILL NOT BE NEEDED if the spacer/manifold/carb booster/emulsion package is correct.

If people start to analyze their own engine programs, pick up 10hp here, 10 hp over there, etc. They will end up with a more efficient package that will run FASTER that most people with the same engine combination!! Just as class guys such as Langer, Rex, Gaydosh, etc.

We dropped .4 tenths and gained 5 mph with the SAME engine in our low 8 sec car, just small increments at a time..

JMO

Tom, my email address is [email protected].

[Gaby Labiosa]

If you use a 1.5" tapered spacer on top of a cloverleaf spacer, you are not getting the whole picture. The manifold top MUST be cut out in order to see most gains.

You can use the 1" tapered on top of the cloverleaf.

Most people having an all out, Victor/dominator combo would LOVE an extra 10hp. Average power and acceleration down the track would improve also..

Again, Tom you are correct again!

Ten hp might just give you close to a tenth in a slower car.

On higher hp cars with a Victor manifold, you might see less, sometimes, even MORE.. On a Victor/Pontiac, the distance from the carb to the plenum is small, compared to other "race" manifolds.

Most race engines that can stand more plenum volume will have the added benefit of having more distance from the plenum floor, allowing the air to slow down and turn to the outside runners. The tapered spacer's angles help the air/fuel make that turn, therefore helping distribution.

If thought out properly, that turtle thing that some people swear by WILL NOT BE NEEDED if the spacer/manifold/carb booster/emulsion package is correct.

If people start to analyze their own engine programs, pick up 10hp here, 10 hp over there, etc. They will end up with a more efficient package that will run FASTER that most people with the same engine combination!! Just as class guys such as Langer, Rex, Gaydosh, etc.

We dropped .4 tenths and gained 5 mph with the SAME engine in our low 8 sec car, just small increments at a time..

JMO

Tom, my email address is [email protected].

[Gaby Labiosa]

If you use a 1.5" tapered spacer on top of a cloverleaf spacer, you are not getting the whole picture. The manifold top MUST be cut out in order to see most gains.

You can use the 1" tapered on top of the cloverleaf.

Most people having an all out, Victor/dominator combo would LOVE an extra 10hp. Average power and acceleration down the track would improve also..

Again, Tom you are correct again!

Ten hp might just give you close to a tenth in a slower car.

On higher hp cars with a Victor manifold, you might see that, even MORE.. On a Victor/Pontiac, the distance from the carb to the plenum is small, compared to other "race" manifolds.

Most race engines that can stand more plenum volume will have the added benefit of having more distance from the plenum floor, allowing the air to slow down and turn to the outside runners. The tapered spacer's angles help the air/fuel make that turn, therefore helping distribution.

If thought out properly, that turtle thing that some people swear by WILL NOT BE NEEDED if the spacer/manifold/carb booster/emulsion package is correct.

If people start to analyze their own engine programs, pick up 10hp here, 10 hp over there, etc. They will end up with a more efficient package that will run FASTER that most people with the same engine combination!! Just as class guys such as Langer, Rex, Gaydosh, etc.

We dropped .4 tenths and gained 5 mph with the SAME engine in our low 8 sec car, just small increments at a time..

JMO

Tom, my email address is [email protected].

[harry k]

A 600 RWHP engine is not typical of the average Pontiac racer
on this board:
wow not according to some of the signatures by the some posters in here !


At some point I will see all of those 10 hp items added up and WILL be faster than you everytime in competition :
BTW that's how i get my 600RWHP in my lil NATURULLY ASPRIRATED 467CI



ps You will never be a National Champion when you give away hp so easily:
Ditto to that .

[harry k]

If you use a 1.5" tapered spacer on top of a cloverleaf spacer, you are not getting the whole picture:
you've misundrstood my post ,it was NOT used like that , i meant to say originally victor w/ Edelcrock recomended alluminum 1"cloverleaf spacer to start with ,then remove the 1" spacer from manifold and then install your 1.5" tapered spacer to do the test .



On higher hp cars with a Victor manifold, you might see that, even MORE.. : that what i meant earlier NOT noticible .

Most race engines that can stand more plenum volume will have the added benefit of having more distance from the plenum floor, allowing the air to slow down and turn to the outside runners. The tapered spacer's angles help the air/fuel make that turn, therefore helping distribution.
If thought out properly, that turtle thing that some people swear by WILL NOT BE NEEDED if the spacer/manifold/carb booster/emulsion package is correct.:
well i dont disagree with your products integrity,but when you talk to Jean Dittimer ,he will say hes ingenuity with his design works as well !

If people start to analyze their own engine programs, pick up 10hp here, 10 hp over there, etc. They will end up with a more efficient package that will run FASTER that most people with the same engine combination!! :
takes a lot for your average racer to analyze and understand , thats why a product with small gain that is not noticible easily ,they call it POS that they paid for and put the bad word out .
JMO

[Gaby Labiosa]

Hi Harry,

I apologize for misunderstanding your post. You said you removed your cloverleaf spacer and installed our 1.5" tapered? Did the manifold still have the cloverleaf SHAPE on the carb flange? If it did, then you still will not see the full effect of the spacer. If the carb flange was cut out, that would be a different story.

That is, unless a you run a 1" tapered which if you turn upside down, you can see that it won't interfere with the cloverleaf shape.

Harry, I am not putting Jean Dittmer down. I am sure he is a pretty smart individual. His round top HVH manifold was a pretty good idea to keep air speed/acceleration up in small motors.

However, we feel that idea is more of a crutch for a wet fuel problem inherent in the manifold design/porting/carb etc. We have tried them over and over again. We make more power when that is FIXED, rather than use something as a band-aid.

We do not use anything like that in our record holding manifolds in Nextel Cup, Busch, Truck, NHRA P/S, NMRA Hot Street, etc. We are CONSTANTLY doing R&D for this level of competition. Do you think we wouldn't run them if we could make more power?

I guarantee you that it's not on OUR Victor manifold-- it's probably one or the fastest N/A stock block, E head/Victor car there is out there.. If you look down in it, it will have the stock honeycomb-looking shape on the floor.

Although now to think of it, it might be a good idea to try a similar "scam" on our fuel manifolds for Force and Kalitta?

Harry, while 8-12hp might not see like a huge gain, but most of our customers can notice the difference. Not only on the dyno, but how the motor runs down the track, how much cleaner it goes up against the converter/transbrake. Also, most people have to realize that all 8 cylinders having equal distribution, now they can "tune it up" to make more power..


Hope this clarifies some things..

[White Warrior]

Great information,keep up the Tech info,Gaby.
My own real world experiences recently was trying a 1" 4 hole stepped spacer on the Victor on my 4 cy Tempest. It picked up a whole MPH @2800 lbs.
It might have picked up more but the fuel distribution is bad [center 2 cylinders are lean]. The mods I had done last year made it even worse.Now I have 200 degree egt difference between the inner and outer cylinders.
I wish I could get some help there.
The other experiece with spacers was on a bathtub intake I ran. I had originally set it up with 1/2 phenlic open spacers.I believe it was running about 131mph at the track. I added another 1# open spacer under each carb and the car slowed down to 128mph. I took off both spacers and the car went 133mph

[goquick]

I must be greedy for hp. I don't care if something only picks me up 1 or 2 hp, it's more than I had !!! I'll take 15 1 hp improvements and any 10hp improvements you want to give me! Just quit complaining when I am half a second or more quicker than you. I agree with Tom V.




Now that's overwith, On my 408, with the eheads, a 1 1/2" hvh 4 hole spacer worked best, even over the 2" 4 hole hvh. bUT THAT GAIN WAS APPOX. 1 1/2 HP everywhere in the rpm range. Now, with the KRE heads, everything else the same, that thing liked the 2"hvh 4 hole best, resulting in a 3-7 hp gain everywhere except from 2500 to 3200rpm, where the 1" open was the best tested, but only by about 3 hp. The carb is an 800 mainbody on an 850 base, with alot of work internally. With the 2" spacer and on the manifold (victor) it delievers 940cfm. I didn't get to try all the spacers avalible, but there is only so much time you have to try anything!