[rdl]

I don't see the R/A II automatic Firebird (formerly belonging to Tony Goodman of P/S fame) on your list either.

There's a certain '69 IV T/A car that may attend Stanton this Fall. If so, together with Tiemann's '67 I, Mino's '68 II, my '69 III and that '69 IV car, all the R/A first gen's will be represented at one event for perhaps the first time in Pontiac history. Kinda' cool don't you think?

[ramair2]

I knew Tonys wasnt matching and I thought (recent HPP mag article?) it was a 'tribute' RA II. If its a documented RA II car my bad on that...I'll add it in...

BTW the three consecutive cars I listed above (the two autmn bronze cars then the black ra 2) were all Mino's...Is Tony's one of Mino's ex-car (ie the auto black car?) If so it is listed in the original 12 I have above...

[rdl]

Originally Posted by ramair2

... Is Tony's one of Mino's ex-car (ie the auto black car?) If so it is listed in the original 12 I have above...

Either way, you have it then. Sorry if I confused things. When I spoke with Tony, he told me that when he acquired the car, it was one of Jim's old cars less the drivetrain. He had installed the II equipment for P/S racing. Although I never cleared it up with him, I had also heard that it was a R/A I car originally.

Jim's cars are definitely well prep'd for racing. Tony refined it further bringing a decade of NHRA experience to finally achieve the 12.3x that still stands today as the fastest P/S Pontiac. That said, ... if this IV car is ready... lookout.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by rdl

... refined it further bringing a decade of NHRA experience to finally achieve the 12.3x that still stands today as the fastest P/S Pontiac. That said, ... if this IV car is ready... lookout.

rdl, it looks like JMino (Dr.Duece) (12.10) is ready for anybodies IV machine. Or anykind else.

Steve, he was wanting to keep the Car being done for race a secret long as possible for some reason - not anything about the engine. They have to follow teardown specs on builds. Bruno and Mino both play that part by the book. I think it's becoming a contest of who will run the loosest tolerances and thinnest oil now.

There is/was an inside/outside rivalry of who will be the first to put an early Bird Pontiac into the 11.99 P/S club. The race is on.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I think it's becoming a contest of who will run the loosest tolerances and thinnest oil now.

That's Truman's old trick.

Fred Simmonds established the production date on the birds by going back through all of the BH cards back in the late 80's early 90's. Jim has been using this date for all GTO's & Birds since then. My GTO is on the cusp - built mid May but no original motor. EUN's on the history cards show all zeros - nobody knew what was going in these cars when they went to the line - whichever motor was there when they got there was the one that went into the car.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

Go back thru the posts on this ...

Cam, you have supplied a lot of heavy duty info in this thread. I had just read all 4pages for the first time right before my first response. Can you post the different data you thought you still might have for us to be able to educate others with ? I know it can be serious pain in the arse to dig out and dig through old crap. But this is heavy duty stuff for some of us, if you are able.

Martys NL, Magnificent Five, he told me it was coined by Pontiac promotions on early Birds. I had never heard of it before. He explained, I might have it half right - base 6cyl/ Sprint6/ base V8/ 400/ Ram Air. How close was that ?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

As far as I know "we" have no way in accessing what would be considered "true undeniable" proof in identifying a genuine Ram1 from a Ram2 during the transistion period - going by the price reflection of the option cost. That would seem like the most proof positive form of verified documentation that you could take to the bank. Take for instance a Car built in the last day or two of April through the first week of May time period. We don't know exactly what date the actual Car order was approved for build. And we don't know if that Car was charged the additional option cost, or the previous lower cost. It would seem like you would have to have the actual original window sticker (not repo) in order to prove on paper that this said example vehicle was indeed Ram2 genuine.

So then with that in mind, how does JM make the determination from the Billing History - without pricing - other than throwing a dart at a calender. I feel like I know how FredS did it, he had access to the Dealer Invoice copies along with the Billing History Card copies, for at least 68 and 69 model years. I have seen a copy of each actual form of documentation for both these years. I saved the 69 BHC, but failed to save copy of the 68 DI. Hopefully it caught someone elses eye harder than mine and they saved copy to disc.

I understand how the price change reflects to a dated period in time, and how it plays a role in determining a relative date for Ram2 release. I like the idea of having 2-3 forms of cross referencing factory literature versus the idea of throwing darts at the middle part of a May 68 calender. Let's try and establish an agreeable breaking point from the info we have presently. I might post some more observations later - keyboard needs to cool down for a while.

I have learned more about 68 Ram1/Ram2 in past 6 months than previous 20 years.

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Cam, you have supplied a lot of heavy duty info in this thread. I had just read all 4pages for the first time right before my first response. Can you post the different data you thought you still might have for us to be able to educate others with ? I know it can be serious pain in the arse to dig out and dig through old crap. But this is heavy duty stuff for some of us, if you are able.

Martys NL, Magnificent Five, he told me it was coined by Pontiac promotions on early Birds. I had never heard of it before. He explained, I might have it half right - base 6cyl/ Sprint6/ base V8/ 400/ Ram Air. How close was that ?

It was 350HO(326) not the RA that was the other of the "Five"
the RA was an option on top of the 400,whereas the others were
separate engine/drivetrain options.
Billing historys have been modified to exclude prices.I believe that was at PMD/GMs request.
I honestly believe that if too much flack is taken by GM for providing this info it will simply evaporate.GM is not in the business of restoring old cars or info for them they are building and selling new cars.All else is just icing.
Im pretty sure that the document showing updated changes in the price schedules is enough proof as to the exact date of the RAI-RAII transition.That document dated 6/5/68 shows the 4/29/68 date as the rollover.
Prices posted do not concur with a document I just rediscovered dated 11/67 which showed a L67 price of 342.29 for A body and 616.12 for F body. The Fbody included the 345 option in that pricing.
Whats odd is the June 1968 document states the option price(stricken thru to reflect the increase) for the L67 was 357.29. Im going to dig some more and see if there was a $15 increase between 11/67 and 4/68.I SERIOUSLY doubt that someone got a RAII at the RAI price but learned long ago to never say "never" or "always".Stay tuned more to come.