[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Guys, I think it's important that we list all the option numbers and show all our work on these things when we do a breakdown. Gives viewers better chance to do checks and balances on us.

I went back through the Alpine Blue Auto Duece. I found a thing or two different.
The clock shouldn't be billed twice. The radials aren't free.

I don't know what option 375 is - but Brian didn't list a charge for it on the Green 4spd Car and it shows on it also. The Green 4spd also has option 754 shoulder belts that he listed no charge for either.

Anyway - if I use the same science towards the math on this Alpine Blue Auto Duece - it fits.



347 Ram Air blank
351 THM tranny 236.97
361 STT HD posi 63.19
375 ? ?
382 AM pbutton/Man Ant 61.09
412 Dr Edge Grds 6.24
422 Visor Mirr R&L 4.21
431 Custom Seatbelts 12.64
454 Rally One 61.09
476 (472 Console Auto) 68.46
(474 Clock) 0 (already billed in with 484 option)
484 Gauges & Clock 50.55
503 (501 Pwr Str) 94.79
(502 Pwr Brakes) 42.13
521 Frt Disc Brakes 63.19
531 Soft Ray ALL 34.76
621 Ride & Handle 4.21
71S 72M Wht Radial Tires 10.53
754 Shoulder Belts Frt 0 (inclusive ?)

Option Total (less RA) ..... 814.05
Destination.......................70.50
Base Price.....................3101.00

Subtotal...................... 3985.55
Ram Air II ..................... 473.94

Total ......................... 4459.49

Label Price ................. 4459.49

Now it fits .... dang it.

[The Boss]

754 w/431 is $26.33

Why would that be inclusive?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I guess you saw I had to edit that last post a couple times, Boss.

I was calling it Teal instead of Alpine. And my subtotal I posted as 3988.55 instead of the correct 3985.55.

But the SOB is right. lol. Just letting you guys know I could REALLY use some Canadian "cigarettes" to help do this stuff.

Boss, #431 reads like it includes Frt Shoulder - (except on Convertible) - for $12.64.
For $9.48 - you just get front and rear custom/deluxe lap belts.

Might be one of those deals like the dual exhaust on the Bird. They just list it because it's going on there. But Billing knows what gets charged and what not (?) maybe. Like the double listed clock deal.

Fun - Huh ?

Looks like the 754 only becomes a charge option if applied on a convertible. They list 754 on hardtop so we know to add 12.64 for #431, instead of just 9.48.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Drop some more 68 RA GTO BH Cards on out here, boys and girls.

April May and June.

BlkBrd, your Black Bird sounds REALLY REALLY NICE. But I'm not doing anymore Birds for a while. Not qualified yet. May never be.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I just had to.
Went back and cleaned up the Ram2 Bird some more.

ramair2 and BlkBrd : When you go to scan your Order Form detail sheets - you can change it to "text" or "black-white" selection on scanner options - instead of "color" or "picture". This will lower the file size dramatically. Been there/done that.

There should be a third or even fourth sheet involved with the two sheets that ramair2 already posted.

I have never PHS'd a 68. But have done a few 67 GTO's. Using those 67 sheets I have found some more useful data for this Bird.

#568 is the Notchback seat.

#742 "should" concern differential - maybe optional gear (charge-no charge?). Sales code column 74 pertains to differentials in 1967. Would be on sheet #3 or #4.

#37P is still mysterious. But it (37P) also appears on BlkBrds Ram1. Since you both also have option #554 Custom in common, I'm guessing it has some pertinence to a detail involved with the Custom option. More than likely a non-charge item, like #375 on the Goats.

In all truth - I'm just guessing that 554 is Custom. 37P could be Custom. One of them is. They are both (554 - 37P) shared by yours and BlkBrd's both physically and on paper. You guys need to dig in a lil deeper and scoure those sheets.

#754 shoulder belts is only a "charge" item on Convertibles.


1968 Bird Ram2 4spd QQ/Blk Bench Custom-Deluxe

347 Ram Air .......................................blank
358 4spd Manual Close Ratio................184.31
361 STT HD Posi.................................63.19
37P ? ................................................. ?
383 (381 Rear Ant)...............................9.48
-----(382 AM pbutton)........................61.09
481 Dual Exh..................................(inclusive)
531 Soft Ray ALL................................30.54
554 Custom Option............................114.80
568 Notchback Bench..........................31.60
71M 72C Redlines.................................n/c
742 *concerning differential/gearing........n/c*
754 Shoulder Belts.........................(inclusive- on later hardtops -at the least)


Options total .............................. 495.01
Destination....................................83. 00
Base price..................................2666.00

Subtotal....................................3244.0 1

Ram Air II....................................747.77 (conforms with 4/29/68 bulletin)
(#345-400 option 273.83 + RamII 473.94 = 747.77)

Total.........................................3991 .78

Label price.................................4106.78

$115.00 is missing from this list. Plenty of room was left for Ram2 status though. : )

There could be a "MEMO-SPECIAL EQUIPMENT" involved with your Car. Or a price increase in base price. Just launching some possibilities.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

37 P/ 37P on the Birds and,
37 5/ 375 on the Goats

- is going to be for something common on GTO option or Fbird400 option. I'm thinking like lap belts, padded carpet, some kind of thing of that nature.

ALL the GTO's we've done have had it (37 5/ 375), at no charge.

#554 IS the Custom option on Birds.

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I just had to.
Went back and cleaned up the Ram2 Bird some more.

ramair2 and BlkBrd : When you go to scan your Order Form detail sheets - you can change it to "text" or "black-white" selection on scanner options - instead of "color" or "picture". This will lower the file size dramatically. Been there/done that.

There should be a third or even fourth sheet involved with the two sheets that ramair2 already posted.

I have never PHS'd a 68. But have done a few 67 GTO's. Using those 67 sheets I have found some more useful data for this Bird.

#568 is the Notchback seat.

#742 "should" concern differential - maybe optional gear (charge-no charge?). Sales code column 74 pertains to differentials in 1967. Would be on sheet #3 or #4.

#37P is still mysterious. But it (37P) also appears on BlkBrds Ram1. Since you both also have option #554 Custom in common, I'm guessing it has some pertinence to a detail involved with the Custom option. More than likely a non-charge item, like #375 on the Goats.

In all truth - I'm just guessing that 554 is Custom. 37P could be Custom. One of them is. They are both (554 - 37P) shared by yours and BlkBrd's both physically and on paper. You guys need to dig in a lil deeper and scoure those sheets.

#754 shoulder belts is only a "charge" item on Convertibles.


1968 Bird Ram2 4spd QQ/Blk Bench Custom-Deluxe

347 Ram Air .......................................blank
358 4spd Manual Close Ratio................184.31
361 STT HD Posi.................................63.19
37P ? ................................................. ?
383 (381 Rear Ant)...............................9.48
-----(382 AM pbutton)........................61.09
481 Dual Exh..................................(inclusive)
531 Soft Ray ALL................................30.54
554 Custom Option............................114.80
568 Notchback Bench..........................31.60
71M 72C Redlines.................................n/c
742 *concerning differential/gearing........n/c*
754 Shoulder Belts.........................(inclusive- on later hardtops -at the least)


Options total .............................. 495.01
Destination....................................83. 00
Base price..................................2666.00

Subtotal....................................3244.0 1

Ram Air II....................................747.77 (conforms with 4/29/68 bulletin)
(#345-400 option 273.83 + RamII 473.94 = 747.77)

Total.........................................3991 .78

Label price.................................4106.78

$115.00 is missing from this list. Plenty of room was left for Ram2 status though. : )

There could be a "MEMO-SPECIAL EQUIPMENT" involved with your Car. Or a price increase in base price. Just launching some possibilities.

Only if you ordered the Protection group 322 was the shoulder belts a no cost item.
This group included door edge guards, front and rear mats ,rear window defogger ,spare tire cover,front and rear custom(deluxe) belts and shoulder belts. Cost was $58.38 for 22337 and $34.16 for 22367. Option 754 was a cost option in 2 forms with custom belts and without custom belts.Option 431 was custom belts for all models and price was $12.64 (except convert.),$9.48 for convertible.Rear shoulder belts were added for additional $26.33.Custom belts were not part of the custom trim option.
Ive got custom belts with shoulder belts in a stripped down model and standard belts with shoulder belts in a loaded up custom trim car.

[Cortezls6]

As the RAII bird info continues I just want to make mention that Mark Weymouth is going to be doing a Pure Stock bird for the Pure Stock Muscle Car drag racing scene. He dyno's his motors before reinstalling them. I think that info will be intriguing for any RAII guy as the debate if RAII vs RAIV has been a good topic.

Jim

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

Only if you ordered the Protection group 322 was the shoulder belts a no cost item.

hmm...I'll have to disagree in certain respects. I suppose you are only referencing belts in a Bird, hopefully and perhaps.

The BHC/Label Price dissection/Option Call Out sheets/Window Sticker verify otherwise on the GTO's.

ramair2's Bird call out sheets (highlighted order forms) list no charge or mention for shoulder belts either. Maybe it's a fluke, or maybe there is a break point.

Perhaps you can actually post some actual factory documentation, as in post your BHC for these Cars and I will dissect them. I do believe shoulder belts in hardtops "may" have been a charge in earlier built Cars. But not in any of these we have done so far. I stand to be corrected as far as Birds go, and welcome your BHC's. It may educate us further.

I read the arrangement in a totally different manner. And feel completely 100% confident about it concerning GTO's - at the least. The label price totals, PHS highlighted order forms and even the original window sticker we have from the Black RA1 GTO confirm Brians' and my science in use.

Please show me where the charge for the #754 option from the BHC is listed on this original window sticker (from same Car). It is obvious it has shoulder belts by the #754 on BHC and the 12.34 charge for upgrade to custom/deluxe belts. Where is the #754 front shoulder belt charge.

BlkBrd's Pre-January hardtop lists no 754. That may have been near a break point. I'd really rather see it in the actual math of a post-February built Car.

I realize the fact that we are dealing with two different type vehicles in this thread could easily cause confusion to some readers in some regards. Lets be specific and show all proofs, and state when something you are discussing is only related to one or the other - or both. It may be by accident, but you're clouding the issues.

Let me stress, I don't mind being corrected - but lets see the actual pertinent factory generated documentation from a post-February built Firebird first.

The post-February GTO is cut and dry, already.

[brians]

Baron:
The $115 that you are missing is the base price increase.
The base Firebird had an increase to $2,781. I can’t find the sheet but I believe it was Jan. 1 1968.

Code 754 is related to that. The shoulder belts became std. equipment except conv’t . Again going off memory, but I think it was Jan. 1, 1968 for all Pontiacs. The option box would have remained in the billing card because of the conv't, but no cost was associated on the HT as it was std. equipment.

I ran the black conv’t in your link and it comes out right.
(talk about some options!)


I believe we have enough data on the RA2 GTO’s to atleast “assume” the 1-1-68 option price sheet is right. If we get more May sheets, we may actually be able to narrow the RA changeover date down.

Firebird is still messing me up. I ran my RA1 F/B and can’t get it right unless I charge $9.48 for the ride and handling package - which should have only been $4.21 with the 400 option?
If I use $9.48 then the exact $15.00 increase shows up? Maybe another increase?

Anybody else’s head hurt???

Brian

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Thank you Brian.

So ramair2's Ram2 Bird comes up even on the Label Price- (without a charge for front shoulder belts I might add).

You want a headache - try dissecting BlkBrd's RA1 Bird Hardtop. I'm not ready to talk about it yet. LoL

[The Boss]

Here's my RAI 4spd bare bones car - if you want to check the math - 12D tag, January 3rd invoice.

[Cammer-6]

Im not mentioning anything about GTO belts,probably muddied the water
on this forum by combining info for RA GTOs and Firebirds. But Im sure this will happen.
As for the BHC] I dont have the same package as PHS supplies and at moment cant find them as all mine are in the same place...(misplaced).
Im not going to break apart sales sheets to scan but will take a pic of them.
It could very well be the 1/1/68 rollover date for no charge on 754 on hardtops,but the Sept 67 shows a charge for all and Feb 68 shows a charge with convert in ( ).
Alot must have been revised as for pricing as of 1/1/68 and Im going to dig thru all the prices and see whats up.

[Cammer-6]

Sept 67 Price schedule Page 1



Page 2




Feb 68



found this also

[ramair2]

Thanks for the AMAZING teamwork guys, especially BVZ and Brians. You guys got my cars price down to the CENT! I had no idea shoulder belts were "no cost". Didnt know about the 1-1-68 (4%) increase in base price either. Bet that pissed people off who were pricing cars back in 12/67 and bought in 1/68!

BTW I have docs on another insane car but unfortuanely BH is buried somewhere in the attic. Its a late april RA convertibird (leather interior, LOADED) but the invoice was mid-late JUNE 68!

PHS said RA 1 and its a matching WI car so I am sure its a not a duece but given the late invoice I wonder if that screwed up billing? I'll try to dig up the docs...

Had no idea this RA II thread would have such legs! Keep em coming! :-)

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by ramair2

...you guys got my cars price down to the CENT! :-)

That's when you know they're Right. You can take it to the bank, Brother. Never been any doubts about your Bird, but it's always sweet to see it by the numbers.

All I did was apply it the way it should be by the examples we had to learn from. I didn't pull any punches or bend it to fit. It had $115 missing and that was all I could do for it anymore.

Brian has been phenomenal in producing criteria that has allowed us to get to this point. His ol' Man really raised him right.

I've been enjoying this a lot so far, been worth it. I posted in the other original thread when you originally posted a duplicate of it in the 68-69 GTO section. It sure has worked a lot better over here, than it did over there.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Here's my RAI 4spd bare bones car - if you want to check the math - 12D tag, January 3rd invoice.

1968 GTO Ram1 4spd - (12D build) FlamBurg The Boss
Jan.3, 1968 billing date. N2 223

347 Ram Air ..........................blank
358 4spd .............................184.31
361 STT HD posi.....................63.19
375 ? ....................................n/c
384 AM-FM p/b-Man Ant..........133.76
454 Rally One.........................61.09
472 Console-Manual.................52.66
521 Disc Brakes Frt..................63.19
532 SoftRay WS......................25.28
71P-72C (PC) Rlines WdOval.........n/c
754 Frt Shdr Blts.......................n/c
SVT Cordova Top (vinyl)...........94.79


Option total (less RA)............678.27
Destination...........................75.75
Base price.........................3101.00

Subtotal...........................3855.02

Ram Air.............................342.29

Total...............................4197.31

Label price.......................4197.31


This one must have been on the very early edge of front shoulder belt being n/c.

We may even find one or more odd examples of where a customer elected not to have the shoulder belts installed on his headliner by personal preference - even after they were n/c. I'm not sure if they became "MANDATORY" in Hardtops (maybe-maybe not), but did come as standard when Brian mentions. So don't anybody flip out if we discover one after that date without 754 on BHC sometime.

This one shows no $15 increase in 347 R/A at this earlier stage.

The Ram1 March build Firebird Agena Blue, the April build Blk/Blk GTO and the May build VodooGreen GTO all do show the $15 Ram1 increase to be evident and correct for that later period in time.

[The Boss]

Something to note - the BHC has the EUN listed as 343699, the EUN on the December cast XS block I picked up is 448144 - over 100k units later! My XW cast C118 was put in the June 24 invoiced car. These motors were produced well in advance of the cars they went in.

Thanks for the math work there BVZ. Even though the Voodoo Green car ended up a I.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by brians

I ran the black conv’t in your link and it comes out right.
(talk about some options!)

How in the world did you get that BH Card. D@mn you're good.
What a CAR ! That guy needs to work on getting some better pix taken of it.

Originally Posted by brians

I ran my RA1 F/B and can’t get it right unless I charge $9.48 for the ride and handling package - which should have only been $4.21 with the 400 option?
If I use $9.48 then the exact $15.00 increase shows up? Maybe another increase?

You know the routine. If it's $15 short (A or F), or $115 short (F)- or combo of both (F) - nothing else can even possibly make it right. Has to be it.

I wouldn't call it cheating to use the $9.48 when I read the Pontiac protocol listed with that option/variance. Some options say when with 345,347,348. That one only says with 345.

We would need an original window sticker to be absolute. But Billing may have had a different way of scrutinizing this than we do. And their own protocol could be causing the 347 and 348 options to overide the 345 recognition (discount) - in this instance.

I'm calling it a glitch in protocol on this example until further notice.

[Mark Weymouth]

Hello everyone, this is my first post and I wanted to introduce myself first.

Jody sent me this link and it interested me enough to join. I see several fimiliar freinds here in Jody, Rob (rdl) and of course the best RA II guy of them all Jim.

I believe all that is said likely speaks to the point well enough from my perspective but I did want to add two cars that are most certianly around but I will not devuldge the owners names. That is their choice not mine.

I have seen both and one I have had several opportunities to be in. My cousin is (was) the original owner of a RA II convert Goat. Red/blk/blk 4spd car. He sold it a bit ago but it is very much real and around. He bought it new from his own dealerships.

The second was not on the list either. It is a RA II bird that is a special order paint code car in red and other very unique options. It is around and I have been helping out with the project. Again it is a well doc'd car.

This is a thread I take to heart as RA II's are much loved by me. Especially the Red Goat as it was likely the fastest car I had ever been in when I got my first ride well before I could drive such things.

Best regards,
Mark Weymouth