[b-man]

Originally Posted by goquick

Where and who have you been getting the prices from? Bet it's cheaper than that pos chevy crate engine unless someone is trying to rob you.

So, when are you going to prove to the forum members that you can build a cheaper and more powerful Pontiac engine that is just as fuel efficient and lightweight as one of these LS3 engines?

You came into my build thread claiming you could, and when I kindly asked you to provide the parts list and specs for such an engine you went away for over a month and never responded. After that I removed your posts in my thread, you were just going into my thread over and over to trash it and couldn't provide any backup to your claims.

Build a complete all-aluminum Pontiac V8 with a hydraulic roller cam and port EFI for less than $6200.

Tell us all how you can do it.

We're waiting.

[goquick]

B man, I had also moved during that time 700+ miles and did not have a computer. Now you want to trash me for my opinion of your ruining a Pontiac? Let's see, you've spent HOW MUCH to put that over rated pos in your car? A hell of alot more than 6200 !!! Get honest you now have at least 30k in your project. You will have a nice chevelle when it's done. But why did you remove all my post? Because you really didn't want to see the numbers.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by goquick

B man, I had also moved during that time 700+ miles and did not have a computer. Now you want to trash me for my opinion of your ruining a Pontiac? Let's see, you've spent HOW MUCH to put that over rated pos in your car? A hell of alot more than 6200 !!! Get honest you now have at least 30k in your project. You will have a nice chevelle when it's done. But why did you remove all my post? Because you really didn't want to see the numbers.

I have 31K in my project, and about 19K of that is for the engine and trans, fuel system, computer controls, etc. A bunch of money went into brakes, suspension and wheels and tires that all have zero to do with the LS3 engine install.

Most of the component costs are listed in my thread, I didn't cut any corners and bought all new parts.

Out of that 19K was a $6200 engine, a $450 oil pan, $620 headers and $1700 computer and wiring harness that controls both the engine and trans. A harness to run the engine alone would have cost about half that $1700. All of the fuel system parts and cooling system pieces would be needed no matter what EFI engine was going in the car.

I decided to install a 4L70E transmission that enables my car to have a lockup converter and cruise control, the trans was $2300 and the Yank lockup converter was $725. I also spent an extra $500 for a custom tailshaft that enabled me to keep a cable-driven speedo. None of this has anything to do with the LS3 engine either, I could have used a $500 TH400 and a $500 Continental converter that I already had.

Nobody's trashing your opinion, but you love to come into this forum making snide remarks. Your trashing posts were removed because you're just trying your best to turn these threads into a Chevy bash-fest.

Again, list up all the parts and the cost for your all-aluminum EFI hydraulic roller-cammed Pontiac engine.

Mine cost less than 8K, ready to bolt into the car.

Let's see your numbers. I did want to see your list of parts and prices, but you never responded to my very fair challenge. You came back into my thread several times since then, but never offered up any information just several remarks about my car being a nice Chevelle. How am I or anyone else here supposed to take you seriously?

List your parts and costs, include the labor to assemble it all complete and load it into a crate ready to ship.

[goquick]

Originally Posted by b-man

I have 31K in my project, and about 19K of that is for the engine and trans, fuel system, computer controls, etc. A bunch of money went into brakes, suspension and wheels and tires that all have zero to do with the LS3 engine install.

Most of the component costs are listed in my thread, I didn't cut any corners and bought all new parts.

Out of that 19K was a $6200 engine, a $450 oil pan, $620 headers and $1700 computer and wiring harness that controls both the engine and trans. A harness to run the engine alone would have cost about half that $1700. All of the fuel system parts and cooling system pieces would be needed no matter what EFI engine was going in the car.

I decided to install a 4L70E transmission that enables my car to have a lockup converter and cruise control, the trans was $2300 and the Yank lockup converter was $725. I also spent an extra $500 for tailshaft that enabled me to keep a cable-driven speedo. None of this has anything to do with the LS3 engine either, I could have used a $500 TH400 and a $500 Continetal converter that I already had.

Nobody's trashing your opinion, but you love to come into this forum making snide remarks. Your trashing posts were removed because you're just trying your best to turn these threads into a Chevy bash-fest.

Again, list up all the parts and the cost for your all-aluminum EFI hydraulic roller-cammed Pontiac engine.

Mine cost less than 8K, ready to bolt into the car.

Let's see your numbers.

List your parts and costs, include the labor to assemble it all complete and load it into a crate ready to ship.

And for your 6200 I can build a Pontiac that will make more power and get just as good of mpg. Plus he wouldn't have to spend another 2770 just to try to get it in the car. pLUS UNLIKE WHAT YOU had TO DO he wouldn't have to spend the money for a transmission, extra money for an over rated efi (actuly an inferior system to a well prepped carb) But my combo would use an iron block, (factory production piece) and alum. heads. Now if you think the l;s3 is a great engine, then whatever, but I've built a couple of them and driven the cars they are in and frankly, I am not at all impressed with them.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by goquick

And for your 6200 I can build a Pontiac that will make more power and get just as good of mpg. Plus he wouldn't have to spend another 2770 just to try to get it in the car. pLUS UNLIKE WHAT YOU had TO DO he wouldn't have to spend the money for a transmission, extra money for an over rated efi (actuly an inferior system to a well prepped carb) But my combo would use an iron block, (factory production piece) and alum. heads. Now if you think the l;s3 is a great engine, then whatever, but I've built a couple of them and driven the cars they are in and frankly, I am not at all impressed with them.

Your iron block engine is too heavy and will out-weigh the aluminum block LS3 by an easy 150#.

The fact that I wanted to knock a lot of weight off the front end of my car was a big factor, I want it to turn corners. Plus since my LS3 weighs less means it has a power advantage right there, it won't need to haul another 150# around even in a straight line.

Your 450 - 470 HP Pontiac engine (the LS3 easily makes these numbers with just headers) without EFI won't pull down consistent highway mileage numbers even close to 25 MPG.

So you can't build a Pontiac engine for even close to the same money that will do what the LS3 can do. Neither could I, that's why I chose the LS3.

The thing you can never do for any reasonable cost is make it weigh around 400# fully-dressed, let's not pretend that doesn't matter.

Very lightweight, EFI, fuel efficient, factory 24 month/24K mile warranty.

[1978 T/A]

The LS series motors are far from a "pos". LSx motors make tons of power and are still able to retain reliablity as well as good MPG.

[goquick]

Originally Posted by 1978 T/A

The LS series motors are far from a "pos". LSx motors make tons of power and are still able to retain reliablity as well as good MPG.

I guess the 99 ls1 sitting in my driveway with the rod hanging out and it never seen 5500 rpm isn't a pos?

[1978 T/A]

I have an LS2 in my 06 GTO and it has never given me a single problem. I am sorry to hear that you have had bum luck with your T/A, but that does not mean that the LS motors are junk IMO.

[goquick]

Originally Posted by 1978 T/A

I have an LS2 in my 06 GTO and it has never given me a single problem. I am sorry to hear that you have had bum luck with your T/A, but that does not mean that the LS motors are junk IMO.

It's not mine. It's my Sister in laws. She doesn't even get on the go pedal. She just likes to "look' cool. 84,000 miles and kicked the rod. Like I said, I'm not impressed with them. I see the idiots at the track with them, and all of them run about the same, which is alot less than you see printed in magazines. Not until they spend 3k+ do they start perfoming like anything at all. Like I said, for all the wasted money on these engines, a guy would save money putting his Pontiac back in the car and have a car that would perform just as well.

[fbrown]

Boy what a heated bash session. Many posts occured while I was typing this.


I also had a LS2 06 GTO. I never had any problems with it. It was the fastest stock car that I have ever owned and it also got great gas mileage. I got around 18MGP city and 25 MPG interstate at 75MPH. Turn the key and it cranked immediately even in 15 degree weather and it would drive away immediately, no need to warm it up like you do with a engine with a carb. My 77 Cadillac has a 512 CID engine and after it sits for a week, the fuel evaporates from the carb, it take a bit of cranking to get it to start and when it does it doesn't want to pull any load (put it in gear) until you idle it for a while. I'm probably only getting 10MPG in this beast and due to its bad drivability I don't drive it much. I have about 10K in the Cadillac engine and I sure wish I have converted to a LS series of engine. My car prior to the 06 GTO was a 94 Cadillac Fleetwood with a LT1 engine. I started out with a 375 HP crate engine but making a long story short I ended up with a 440HP crate engine. This car would blow the 06 GTO away any also got 22-24MPG highway, for comparison I got 28MPG highway with the stock Fleetwood engine.

I guess the 99 ls1 sitting in my driveway with the rod hanging out and it never seen 5500 rpm isn't a pos?

Any make of engine can have problems. I guess nobody remembers Pontiac's 69 engine problems, they used nylon covered timing chain gears that wore out at 30 to 40K miles and if you were lucky, it just jumped a tooth; if you were unlucky you bent valves. In any event any make of engine can have problems; it doesn’t make them all bad. I have owned 5 LT1 powered cars and the engine in one of them failed at 95K miles. Most LT1's will last to 200k and beyond, the fact that some of them don't, doesn't make them a POS. BTW my 96 Roadmaster wagon has 160K miles and is still going strong.


GM has spent millions developing the LS series and engines and there is no way to match the reliability and drivability and cost of a stock LS3 crate engine. I will concede that you can make just as much HP from a Pontiac engine, but the drivability will not be the same. As far as cost is concerned, I have about 9K in the engine, ECM and gas tank. This is the only cost that relates to a conversion to a LS3, other items would have to be purchased for either a Pontiac or LS3 engine. In my case the Lemans didn't have a engine to begin with. So other components such a transmission, radiator, etc would have to be purchased either way. The LS3 cranks first turn of the key and idles very smoothly. If you want a rough idle you will be disappointed. The Corvette LS3 engine has been dynoed by GM High Tech and Mast and both sources shows the engine to produces right at 500HP through headers and with no emissions equipment.

It would certainly be possible to do a similar swap for much less if you were to use junk yard parts, GTO engine pulls can be had for about $2000, including the transmission and ECM. I used the higher cost crate engine because I wanted a NEW engine, and I bought the ECM from Spearco since I didn't want to fool with modify a harness. I certainly have the talent to modify one; I just don't want to do it. The selection of parts paid off since the engine immediately fired first turn of the key. I didn't have any troubleshooting to do.

I will sum up this by saying a classic car should be driven, not something that sits in your garage to only be driven a few hundred miles per year. This goal will require changes to be made to the engine/drivetrain. In order to get decent gas mileage, you will have to have a Overdrive transmission. The choice of engine doesn't matter as long as you have EFI and don't go too wild on engine specs. Even EFI won't help a 700HP engine get 20 mpg. My choice of engine was a LS3 since it is a brand new engine with a warranty. I'm not suggesting that a LS series of engine is the only way to achieve these goals but it will be one of the easier ones. I don't desire to spend months dialing in a one of a kind EFI on a Pontiac (or even my 77 Cadillac); I want to be enjoying my cars by driving them. If you feel that EFI on a Pontiac engine is what you want, then by all means go for it. I'm certainly not saying a LS engine swap is the only way achieves these goals. As far as EFI on a Pontiac engine, I have yet to see any build threads with someone doing this.

There is plenty of room to support all engine combinations and variations and viewpoints. There is no need to bash anyone because of their choice, simply state you reasons and be done with it, nobody is going the change their project because someone else doesn't like it.

[fbrown]

What are you going to do about the A/C issue?

You're car is going to be sick when it is done.

I will use one of the aftermarket systems, I have not decided which one. I'm only aware of Vintage and Classic for in-dash systems.

[fbrown]

The Lizard skin would not be applied to within a couple of inches of where the quarter would be spot welded, applying a thick coating any closer might interfere with slipping the quarter into place. Applying a sound proofing before installing the quarter will allow for sound proofing to be applied to some areas that would be difficult to reach after the quarter is installed, mainly the upper area where the quarter joins the roof and the area around the rear side window. I also plan to coat the inner structure/brace before installing the quarter and to spray the outside of the outer wheel well. Hopefully this will help make the car quit. These are all areas that would be hard to coat after the quarter is installed. I will be using a weld-through primer where the panel is welded on. Spot Welds for the most part with a few plug welds where the spot welder won't reach.