[242177P]

Originally Posted by bird72

he had to go on and on about the poor wording and post by owner that led him down the path of bad mouthing owner and car....

Not going to stick my neck out too far, but a GM dealer is not the kind of place you pick up engineering prototypes. A conversion is a whole different story, and especially when bought directly from the Hurst Corporation... Just my 2 cents.

If I had a nickle for every outrageous claim I've heard... Sometimes there is some basis behind them, but in my experience the majority are nothing more than fantasy.

[bird72]

Originally Posted by 242177P

Not going to stick my neck out too far, but a GM dealer is not the kind of place you pick up engineering prototypes. A conversion is a whole different story, and especially when bought directly from the Hurst Corporation... Just my 2 cents.

If I had a nickle for every outrageous claim I've heard... Sometimes there is some basis behind them, but in my experience the majority are nothing more than fantasy.

well I do agree 100% with what you say also.... BTW, would you be interested in buying my NASCAR Ram Air heads?

[242177P]

Originally Posted by bird72

well I do agree 100% with what you say also.... BTW, would you be interested in buying my NASCAR Ram Air heads?

I've chased similar stories. Even if it's a very slim chance, any lead on tunnel port 303 stuff is worth pursuing - but when it turns out to be a 4.9 T/A with an opened up shaker...

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I agree with you 98% - but I think you have to make an exception for Royal Pontiac.

Lots of interesting parts and cars flowed through that GM dealership.

K

Granted. I've never really considered Royal to be an ordinary dealer. A perfect example of something worth tracking would be the white 67 GTO (HO/auto) which they had. Without documentation, some might not realize the significance of this one. Connect the dots though...

[MikeNoun]

Keith, we're on the same page, but you stated it better.

The only part I would disagree with is :

Manufacturing Validation Build - Nonsaleable: these are built in the assembly plant. Parts are production tooled (hopefully) but not saleable status yet. Purpose of the build is to validation the manufacturing process, highlight build problems that need to be fixed before mainstream production. Vehicles are fairly refined but have a "nonsaleable" (ie experimental) VIN and cannot be sold or titled. Typical usages are for Engineering and early Marketing uses. In the old days we might have called these "pilot" vehicles.

Some pilot vehicles were later sold through dealerships, so I would say "usually Nonsaleable".

We also have to acknowledge the fact that some prototypes were later taken out of engineering, and survive to this day, while others were destroyed. As we know, the Banshee(s) and some other prototypes (or concept cars) were not destroyed, and Pontiac would not be legally responsible if they were driven on a public road and involved in an accident. Some other prototypes were destroyed, even some that appeared like production units with some changes to the bodywork or the drive train. I guess it's on a case-by-case basis, if someone at engineering wanted a specific car, after they were through with their evaluation, and whether they had any "pull" to talk someone into allowing them to buy the car.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 242177P

Not going to stick my neck out too far, but a GM dealer is not the kind of place you pick up engineering prototypes.

If I had a nickle for every outrageous claim I've heard... Sometimes there is some basis behind them, but in my experience the majority are nothing more than fantasy.

I agree with you 98% - but I think you have to make an exception for Royal Pontiac.

Lots of interesting parts and cars flowed through that GM dealership.

K

[MikeNoun]

I agree, except that some Pontiacs that were sent through PMD engineering made it to a dealership and were sold, and is stated as such on the invoice. Of course these aren't prototypes, BUT some prototypes and engineering cars WERE saved from the crusher. People need to understand the difference is between a prototype, a test car, and an engineering car. It's not always clear, and sometimes an engineering car becomes a test car, and sometimes an engineering car becomes a prototype.

Back to this 68 442 FWD - obviously, this 68 442 FWD car was a engineering exercise by Hurst, and it's a one-off car. After evaluation, this car MAY have been sold at a dealership, but as a used car. It would not have had anything to do with Oldsmobile Engineering, and there would be no warranty. Now because of Hurst's ties to Oldsmobile, I'm sure the story that the fellow gave that his relative claimed he "bought it at a dealership" may be true, and it may have actually have been at an Oldsmobile dealership, but it was a modified car and would not have had a GM warranty. In essence, this 68 442 FWD is a hot rod. It's a slightly different scenario when a dealership (such as Royal) drops a 428 into a 1968 GTO, because those cars still had warranties and were serviced as such. Or the earlier Yenko cars that had engines swapped, they were still warrantied by a dealership. This 68 FWD 442 is something that came out of the Hurst factory as a one-off. It did its job, Hurst received some ink in the media, and that was it. I'm sure the car was driven by a Hurst employee for some time in 1969 or 1970, and it probably ended up being traded in at a dealership later, perhaps an Olds dealer, but there are no ties to Oldsmobile.

Now what people have ignored through all this controversy is why would Hurst make a 68 442 into FWD? The only purpose I can see is, like I stated above, to get a little publicity for Hurst, and exploit the Oldsmobile FWD arrangement. Also, since Hurst was famous at that time for their wild all wheel drive "Hurst Hairy Olds" exhibition drag car, they wanted to promote the Oldsmobile FWD transaxle.

Now if Hurst had gone the extra step and removed the trans tunnel, that would make for a very interesting A-body interior!

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Now what people have ignored through all this controversy is why would Hurst make a 68 442 into FWD? The only purpose I can see is, like I stated above, to get a little publicity for Hurst, and exploit the Oldsmobile FWD arrangement. Also, since Hurst was famous at that time for their wild all wheel drive "Hurst Hairy Olds" exhibition drag car, they wanted to promote the Oldsmobile FWD transaxle.

maybe. or they were looking into making an "all-weather" executive hot rod. As we all know our RWD cars unless heavily loaded in the rear are damn near useless in the snow. Maybe this was Hurst answer to an unasked question...

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Mike Noun

I agree, except that some Pontiacs that were sent through PMD engineering made it to a dealership and were sold, and is stated as such on the invoice. Of course these aren't prototypes, BUT some prototypes and engineering cars WERE saved from the crusher. People need to understand the difference is between a prototype, a test car, and an engineering car. It's not always clear, and sometimes an engineering car becomes a test car, and sometimes an engineering car becomes a prototype.

I'm pretty sure we're on the same page, but by way of a sidebar, here are the definitions that I live by:

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Chronologically in order of level of refinement:

Mule vehicle: this is a previously completed vehicle that is modified by cutting/pasting/cobbling the new content. Typical usage is for engineering development/concept development.

Integration vehicle: can be either a modified existing vehicle or ground up build. Parts will be production design intent (mostly) off either prototype or production tooling. Can be either stall (stationary) build or line built. Typical usages are for engineering development or validation/durability testing. In the old days these might be called "Prototype" vehicles.

Manufacturing Validation Build - Nonsaleable: these are built in the assembly plant. Parts are production tooled (hopefully) but not saleable status yet. Purpose of the build is to validation the manufacturing process, highlight build problems that need to be fixed before mainstream production. Vehicles are fairly refined but have a "nonsaleable" (ie experimental) VIN and cannot be sold or titled. Typical usages are for Engineering and early Marketing uses. In the old days we might have called these "pilot" vehicles.

Manufacturing Validation Build - Saleable: built in the assembly plant. Parts are production tooled, fully saleable status, suppliers have proven they can meet production line rates. Purpose of the build is the next level of refinement in the validation process, continue to surface build problems that need to be addressed, and gain confidence in the ability of the process to meet line rate. Typical usages are for Engineering, Captured Test Fleets, and more formal Marketing events. We would call these "pilot" vehicles, too, or very early regular production vehicles.

Lastly there is the Start of Regular Production: these are the real deal. Regular high volume vehicles released to the public.

Note that, for pre-production vehicles, there is a distinction between the "vehicle owner" (ie, Engineering, Marketing, Durability, Validation, Design Studio) and the "vehicle type" (Proto, Pilot).

Having had the benefit of further though, I would say we need to add one more category: super low volume regular production vehicles. I would suggest that the Swiss Cheese cars and the Super Duty Tempest/Lemans would actually fall into this category, especially since the builds occurred in the middle of the model year.

I'll close by saying this: some of the parts in my collection are experimental parts from Pontiac engineering, delivered to Dick Jesse (many under the auspices of being "scrap" ). Dad liberated them from Dick's desk at Royal ...with Dick's permission, of course.

Ok - sorry bout that.

K

[KEVGTO]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

I agree, except that some Pontiacs that were sent through PMD engineering made it to a dealership and were sold, and is stated as such on the invoice. Of course these aren't prototypes, BUT some prototypes and engineering cars WERE saved from the crusher. People need to understand the difference is between a prototype, a test car, and an engineering car. It's not always clear, and sometimes an engineering car becomes a test car, and sometimes an engineering car becomes a prototype.

Back to this 68 442 FWD - obviously, this 68 442 FWD car was a engineering exercise by Hurst, and it's a one-off car. After evaluation, this car MAY have been sold at a dealership, but as a used car. It would not have had anything to do with Oldsmobile Engineering, and there would be no warranty. Now because of Hurst's ties to Oldsmobile, I'm sure the story that the fellow gave that his relative claimed he "bought it at a dealership" may be true, and it may have actually have been at an Oldsmobile dealership, but it was a modified car and would not have had a GM warranty. In essence, this 68 442 FWD is a hot rod. It's a slightly different scenario when a dealership (such as Royal) drops a 428 into a 1968 GTO, because those cars still had warranties and were serviced as such. Or the earlier Yenko cars that had engines swapped, they were still warrantied by a dealership. This 68 FWD 442 is something that came out of the Hurst factory as a one-off. It did its job, Hurst received some ink in the media, and that was it. I'm sure the car was driven by a Hurst employee for some time in 1969 or 1970, and it probably ended up being traded in at a dealership later, perhaps an Olds dealer, but there are no ties to Oldsmobile.

Now what people have ignored through all this controversy is why would Hurst make a 68 442 into FWD? The only purpose I can see is, like I stated above, to get a little publicity for Hurst, and exploit the Oldsmobile FWD arrangement. Also, since Hurst was famous at that time for their wild all wheel drive "Hurst Hairy Olds" exhibition drag car, they wanted to promote the Oldsmobile FWD transaxle.

Now if Hurst had gone the extra step and removed the trans tunnel, that would make for a very interesting A-body interior!

It was stated that 6 of these were built and supposedly 5 destroyed. It's been rumored of another like it in Up State KY. I've heard it from a known Olds Collector around these parts. It was also stated that it was built for George Hurst himself, no doubt to promote the Toro transaxle (due to the Hurst Hairy Oldsmobile)

In the article and pictures, they DID REMOVE THE TRANS TUNNEL..


And for the record I would love to own a car that George Hurst had personally built for himself.

[MikeNoun]

Kev, I don't know what I was thinking about the trans tunnel. Yes, they DID remove the floor pan. Thanks for correcting my mistake! Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.

P.S. - I mentioned the "1 of 1" because I too had read that the other 5 were destroyed long ago.