[John V.]

Guys, that's exactly the input I was hoping for.

Tenney, was that the GTO vs. GTO Ferrari event? Is there a write-up on how that turned out? I talked with Keith a bit about attending but I couldn't pull it off. Sounded like it would be fun.

What is meant by "the fiddle"?

Never thought a bobcatted '64 was running 13.50s back in the day. Pretty neat.

Always wondered what became of John Jerome. Seems he left NYC & C&D not long after the testing, divorced his wife in '65, died in 2002 at 69 from lung cancer. Too bad, would be interesting to hear his recollections of the trip to Daytona and the Blue car.

Keith, I'm not aware of any underhood shots of the Blue car, nothing in the C&D article that would help. I think there are shots that show a 421 that appear in other mag articles, but I think these were believed or known to be of the Red car.

You guys have convinced me, if Proulx could run those times with a bobcatted 389, then C&D was blown away by a legit GTO, the Bobcat treatment was not disguised, it was thoroughly described in the article and not considered more than tuning. I misjudged the performance based on the mid & high 14 sec. 1/4 times that seemed to be the norm in other '64 test articles.

Anybody know for sure when the Daytona testing took place?

Tenney, do you have any idea about the trans put in the Red car, why the seemingly incorrect gearset info (non-Muncie) in the article and same reference to a "close ratio trans" in the Proulx article (do you agree he must have driven the Blue car with the manual steering)?

I know I've commented before about the rear axle gearing, but is there any explanation why Wangers specified the 3.23 gears for it in the build order for the Red car?

And any idea what gears it traveled to Daytona with?

Any idea if PHS has ever tried to find the Manifest for the Blue car? Had to have been built very early for Proulx to have raced it in October. Almost certainly built at Pontiac. And how many Nocturne Blue Tri-Power GTOs with the 3.90 axle and all of the other identifed options could there have been up to that point?

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by John V.

Guys, that's exactly the input I was hoping for.

Tenney, was that the GTO vs. GTO Ferrari event? Is there a write-up on how that turned out? I talked with Keith a bit about attending but I couldn't pull it off. Sounded like it would be fun.

What is meant by "the fiddle"?

Never thought a bobcatted '64 was running 13.50s back in the day. Pretty neat.

Always wondered what became of John Jerome. Seems he left NYC & C&D not long after the testing, divorced his wife in '65, died in 2002 at 69 from lung cancer. Too bad, would be interesting to hear his recollections of the trip to Daytona and the Blue car.

Keith, I'm not aware of any underhood shots of the Blue car, nothing in the C&D article that would help. I think there are shots that show a 421 that appear in other mag articles, but I think these were believed or known to be of the Red car.

You guys have convinced me, if Proulx could run those times with a bobcatted 389, then C&D was blown away by a legit GTO, the Bobcat treatment was not disguised, it was thoroughly described in the article and not considered more than tuning. I misjudged the performance based on the mid & high 14 sec. 1/4 times that seemed to be the norm in other '64 test articles.

Anybody know for sure when the Daytona testing took place?

Tenney, do you have any idea about the trans put in the Red car, why the seemingly incorrect gearset info (non-Muncie) in the article and same reference to a "close ratio trans" in the Proulx article (do you agree he must have driven the Blue car with the manual steering)?

I know I've commented before about the rear axle gearing, but is there any explanation why Wangers specified the 3.23 gears for it in the build order for the Red car?

And any idea what gears it traveled to Daytona with?

Any idea if PHS has ever tried to find the Manifest for the Blue car? Had to have been built very early for Proulx to have raced it in October. Almost certainly built at Pontiac. And how many Nocturne Blue Tri-Power GTOs with the 3.90 axle and all of the other identifed options could there have been up to that point?

The GTO v. GTO event was fun, John. The day before leaving to attend, I was informed that Bernie Carl's 250 GTO - which I had been told would be participating - was to be replaced by a replica. Tough to do an accurate GTO v. GTO, but the car was a pretty nice copy and the owner a really good fellow. Was told initially we'd do some runs for fun on a neighboring airstrip that never materialized, but we did go on a fun run or two around town. Almost ran out of gas, in fact! All in all a great time, and Jim Wangers was a hit with the Ferrari folks!

I think by "fiddle", David E. meant "ringer", or "cheater", or something not above-board. He made mention of the event in his 08/10 Car and Driver column.

Car and Driver is the only test that featured the red car, I believe. Though there are shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding.

Daytona testing took place December 26th thru 29th, per Mr. Wangers' book.

I'm told the M-20 was replaced with an M-21 in the red car. And that 3.90's were installed at the same time (along w/the 421) - and this is how the car went to Daytona. I don't know why 3.23's were initially specified on the manifest. I'll ask.

Would guess Jim M. has checked for a blue car manifest. Jim W. says it was a pilot car w/no VIN. It was built initially to help sell the GTO program - and care was taken to make sure everything fit just right and was screwed together properly. This was the one he wanted Car and Driver to spend some extended time with.

[Tom Vaught]

Guys, that's exactly the input I was hoping for.

Tenney, was that the GTO vs. GTO Ferrari event? Is there a write-up on how that turned out? I talked with Keith a bit about attending but I couldn't pull it off. Sounded like it would be fun.

What is meant by "the fiddle"?

Never thought a bobcatted '64 was running 13.50s back in the day. Pretty neat.

Always wondered what became of John Jerome. Seems he left NYC & C&D not long after the testing, divorced his wife in '65, died in 2002 at 69 from lung cancer. Too bad, would be interesting to hear his recollections of the trip to Daytona and the Blue car.

Keith, I'm not aware of any underhood shots of the Blue car, nothing in the C&D article that would help. I think there are shots that show a 421 that appear in other mag articles, but I think these were believed or known to be of the Red car.

You guys have convinced me, if Proulx could run those times with a bobcatted 389, then C&D was blown away by a legit GTO, the Bobcat treatment was not disguised, it was thoroughly described in the article and not considered more than tuning. I misjudged the performance based on the mid & high 14 sec. 1/4 times that seemed to be the norm in other '64 test articles.

Anybody know for sure when the Daytona testing took place?

Tenney, do you have any idea about the trans put in the Red car, why the seemingly incorrect gearset info (non-Muncie) in the article and same reference to a "close ratio trans" in the Proulx article (do you agree he must have driven the Blue car with the manual steering)?

I know I've commented before about the rear axle gearing, but is there any explanation why Wangers specified the 3.23 gears for it in the build order for the Red car?

And any idea what gears it traveled to Daytona with?

Any idea if PHS has ever tried to find the Manifest for the Blue car? Had to have been built very early for Proulx to have raced it in October. Almost certainly built at Pontiac. And how many Nocturne Blue Tri-Power GTOs with the 3.90 axle and all of the other identifed options could there have been up to that point? [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Tenney

The GTO v. GTO event was fun, John. The day before leaving to attend, I was informed that Bernie Carl's 250 GTO - which I had been told would be participating - was to be replaced by a replica. Tough to do an accurate GTO v. GTO, but the car was a pretty nice copy and the owner a really good fellow. Was told initially we'd do some runs for fun on a neighboring airstrip that never materialized, but we did go on a fun run or two around town. Almost ran out of gas, in fact! All in all a great time, and Jim Wangers was a hit with the Ferrari folks!

I think by "fiddle", David E. meant "ringer", or "cheater", or something not above-board. He made mention of the event in his 08/10 Car and Driver column.

Car and Driver is the only test that featured the red car, I believe. Though there are shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding.

Daytona testing took place December 26th thru 29th, per Mr. Wangers' book.

I'm told the M-20 was replaced with an M-21 in the red car. And that 3.90's were installed at the same time (along w/the 421) - and this is how the car went to Daytona. I don't know why 3.23's were initially specified on the manifest. I'll ask.

Would guess Jim M. has checked for a blue car manifest. Jim W. says it was a pilot car w/no VIN. It was built initially to help sell the GTO program - and care was taken to make sure everything fit just right and was screwed together properly. This was the one he wanted Car and Driver to spend some extended time with.

1) My documentation for my 64 GTO also shows a 3.23 gear ratio initially installed BUT a 3.90 gear ratio was in the car when I received it.

2) I believe Jim W when he said the Blue car was a Pilot Car but I have a issue with the No VIN deal. By law, all vehicles produced and on the road (even in 1964) were supposed to have VIN #s, even "test mules".

3) The "Blue Car" was supposedly destroyed in a fire many years ago.
Funny thing is, I have heard "rumors" over the years from very good sources that the car was not destroyed.

4) I was told by one of these "sources" that he knew where the car actually was stored. Insurance Fraud is a serious crime, even today, but how could an insurance company go after a company that went bankrupt and who would really care if the car "re-appeared" at some point. All of the experimental engines were supposed to be destroyed too.

5) Tenney says there are "shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding." Going by that deal, then the "Blue Car" would have had at some point a 421 engine installed. Pictures clearly show the Pyramid at the back of the block on a engine being worked on in that time frame in Cars/PHR magazines. The "source" also told be the "Blue Car" had a 421 engine installed at some point.

You have to take these comments with a grain of salt but the comments were made while I was helping Greg S work on Bill Sherman's (now Tenney's car) with Milt S for drag strip work and the "Sources" were present.

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

[/QUOTE]

5) Tenney says there are "shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding." Going by that deal, then the "Blue Car" would have had at some point a 421 engine installed. Pictures clearly show the Pyramid at the back of the block on a engine being worked on in that time frame in Cars/PHR magazines. The "source" also told be the "Blue Car" had a 421 engine installed at some point.


Tom Vaught[/QUOTE]

Unless, Tom, the shots of the blue car were press/publicity stills, and the engine shots are of a different car. I don't have the magazines, though recall it was not a p/s car - which would rule out the red car and, possibly, rule in the blue car. Also, seem to remember the engine as being not too fresh in appearance, with kind of a funky throttle linkage. There was also a shot of the underside of the car with a leaky shock, or something.

Anyone have a copy? Can these pages be located via the Keith decimal system, perhaps?!

Guessing the blue car was #'d somehow, btw. Though, per "Glory Days", it did not have a "production VIN".

Jim says he kept quiet about the 421 all that time because he enjoyed the controversy. I also think he had a great deal of respect for John DeLorean, and knew how to keep a secret (remember those days?!).

Although ...

Once he came clean on the red car, why not own up to the blue one, as well?

I did once ask him if he knew of any other factory-equipped 421 GTO's, and he said he didn't - though would not have been surprised if there were others.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Anyone have a copy? Can these pages be located via the Keith decimal system, perhaps?!

Guessing the blue car was #'d somehow, btw. Though, per "Glory Days", it did not have a "production VIN".

Re: Photos - Doesn't ring a bell. I can check around though.

I'm struggling a bit with the VIN question.

Do the photos clearly show the blue car with a regular Michigan plate? If the rules back then were the same as today, then the only way to regular plate the car would be if it had a saleable production VIN. Anything else would require the use of a Manufacture's plate.

I might be able to prove this out. I know some of the Design Studio cars, driven by Harley Earl and Bill Mitchell as daily drivers, did not have VINs. Let me find some old photos and see how those cars were plated.

K

[John V.]

Keith, you have that March '64 PHR, you shared the images with me a couple years ago. I had forgotten until Tenney reminded me about the article.

Actually two articles in that issue. 1st detailed the Bobcat kit, 2nd was test of Blue car. Unfortunately, no way to know if this test was done before or after Daytona.

My guess is before. Assuming the PHR test was done in Detroit, Tenney tells me the Daytona testing was 12/26 to 12/29, makes sense given the weather in Daytona then plus other evidence.

We know that Roger Proulx drag raced in October, just after Royal completed prepping a GTO per his article. I assume that was the Blue car, it was definitely not the Red car which didn't get built until Nov. and was PS equipped.

Assuming the PHR test was done in Detroit, the likelihood that it was tested before Daytona vs. after is based on what I see in the pix. I know there wouldn't always be snow on the ground in January, but the conditions look more like Nov/Dec to me. If Proulx drove the Blue car as I believe he did, then the PHR article likely details the Bobcat installation done in Oct and the driving test conducted sometime thereafter but before the car went off to NYC to be tested by C & D staff. JMO. Remember, the C & D article says the manual steer (presumed Blue car) was driven from Detroit to NYC, then driven by the entire staff over the course of 10 days BEFORE John Jerome drove with his family to Daytona. That means the Blue car must have left Detroit by 12/15, maybe a day or 2 earlier.

Pertinent pics attached. Note the chalk "W" on the firewall, code for the Nocturne Blue exterior paint? I think so.

So do you see a 421 in these pix?

The 3rd pic is the 1st page of the separate Test Report article, shows the HJ-4471 with the Royal plate frame, same as seen in the C & D article. I believe this is the Blue car, the subject of the Bobcat treatment discussed in the other article (the article was intended to be generic in some respects, but I believe specifically shows the Blue car undergoing the Bobcat installation).

The PHR Test report says this car had already turned a [email protected] on cheater slicks at a drag strip and C & D said they got a best of 12.8@112. The times seem all over the map to me. What do you race experts think? If the PHR pix show a 421, did the Blue car go to Daytona with a 421 and are the times indicative of that or not?

OMT makes a good point about the difficulty of managing traction with the factory vac secondaries. The Bobcat treatment employed mechanical linkage. But he also says times were just as good vac linkage if the car would hook.

I sure don't know, just trying to figure out if the Blue car likely did or didn't have a 421 when C & D drove it 3000 miles and then gushed about it.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

Keith, you have that March '64 PHR, you shared the images with me a couple years ago. I had forgotten until Tenney reminded me about the article.

Dang! I need to tighten up on my organizational skills....

You don't happen to know where my car keys are, do you?

(lol)

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Unless, Tom, the shots of the blue car were press/publicity stills, and the engine shots are of a different car.

What I meant by press/publicity stills is illustrated here. In that we see the same stock shot of the blue car used in two different articles ...

[John V.]

War Eagle, can you or somebody else post the pic from the April '64 Speed & Custom showing the better engine shot with the visible transfer lug "pyramid"?

I've been working out a time line based on what was written back in '63 & '64 vs. the recollections that were published many years later.

Lots of things that don't add up.

For example, JW said in an '89 MCR interview that he stormed into Delorean's office armed with the unfavorable review published by Hot Rod and walked out with two order blanks, implying the Blue car and Tenney's Red car resulted from those order blanks.

But Roger Proulx wrote in his article published March '64 in C & D that JW invited him to drag race a GTO that Royal had just finished prepping in OCTOBER. And it seems 100% certain he drove the same Blue car that went to C & D in NYC and on to Daytona.

The Red car Manifest shows a Date Produced of 11/2/63. The Blue car had already been bobcatted by then.

The Hot Rod mag report on the GTO appeared in their Dec '63 issue (hey Keith, your keys are laying on your copy of that mag, LOL!)

I don't think that mag would have hit the newsstands until after the Red car was already built and if Roger Proulx drove the Blue car in Oct., definitely was not out til after the Blue car had already been prepped by Royal.

The kicker is that my read of the Hot Rod review was FAVORABLE to the GTO, not the "bad press" that it was made out to be.

JW has written that the Blue car was equipped with 3.55 gears and an open diff. Clearly, if the pix are believed, this car was equipped with the Safe-T-Track locking diff.

And multiple articles published in the day starting with the Proulx article all say it had a 3.90 axle. Now I doubt that the writers/testers had any way to know what axle ratio was in the car (not indicated on the Window Sticker), so had to rely on what JW told them I would think. So do we believe what was in the articles or what was said many years later? I sure don't know, but it makes sense to me that the Blue car would have had 3.90 gears, why else tell people that it did?

JW has also claimed the testing was done with the Red car. But there is an interesting retrospective that appeared in the January '75 issue of C & D, written by David E. Davis. I bought that mag new in the infancy of my GTO obsession and still have it. David E. writes that John Jerome drove the "test car" down with his family and Wangers drove a "back-up GTO" down from Detroit. He mentions what fun they had in Daytona, at one point drove over Jerome's camera bag, busted the rear window in the rented Ford convertible, and "lunched the engine in the back-up car".

Twice in the '75 retrospective he refers to the "back-up" GTO and called the Blue car driven down by Jerome as the "test car". Why?

He took credit for writing most of the original article that was published with "help" from Jerome.

JW has said the testing at Daytona was done with the Red car. Many years after, he "admitted" the Red car went to Daytona with a 421.

But the David E. piece written in late '74, many years prior to JW's admission, seems to purposefully point to the Blue car as the car that was tested. Why call the Red car a "back-up" and mention the blown engine if it was the primary car tested in Daytona.

One further fact appearing in the original '64 C & D article. The Price as tested is given in the box with the acceleration results and technical data about the car as tested.

The Price as Tested is $3377.91. This is pretty close to what I am able to calculate for the Blue car with the options described for it in the article.

The Red car stickered for about $250-$300 more than the Blue car, not even close. If the acceleration test results were for the Red car, why was the price of the Blue car indicated?

The article does say they "ran dozens of acceleration tests on the two cars." Doesn't differentiate anywhere between the two of them, so if they saw any performance difference, it wasn't mentioned. They did talk about the difference obtained between the red line tires (higher mph) and drag slicks (lower et).

Both cars featured the Bobcat kit, I don't think there is any doubt about that. I suspect they also featured identical drivetrains. It would make sense that a "back-up" twin was there in case of a blown engine. Logically, you would not have wanted C & D to blow up the 421 car and wind up testing a 389 and reporting less impressive nos.

If the photographic evidence is clear that the engine in the Blue car was a 421, I would conclude C & D took the data it obtained from that car and reported it. No doubt, the Red car performed just as well until the motor went lame.

I believe the Blue car was built weeks ahead of the Red car. But I just don't think it was a non-VIN'd pre-production model. Calling it a "pilot" car really changes nothing, my understanding from those days, "pilot" cars were just the first very early production cars that came down the line at a snails pace while everybody learned their jobs and worked out the kinks before the line speed was sped up. But I doubt it was a "pilot" car either. Pilot production would have been long over by 9/11/63 when VIN 824P003147, one of the early Zone Announcement GTOs, was produced.

Somewhere between that VIN & the Red car VIN is likely the Blue car VIN. Sure wish Jim M. would spend the time to turn up the Manifest record for the Blue car, might at least tell us if the 3.90 axle was special ordered for it.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by John V.

War Eagle, can you or somebody else post the pic from the April '64 Speed & Custom showing the better engine shot with the visible transfer lug "pyramid"?

I've been working out a time line based on what was written back in '63 & '64 vs. the recollections that were published many years later.

Lots of things that don't add up.

For example, JW said in an '89 MCR interview that he stormed into Delorean's office armed with the unfavorable review published by Hot Rod and walked out with two order blanks, implying the Blue car and Tenney's Red car resulted from those order blanks.

But Roger Proulx wrote in his article published March '64 in C & D that JW invited him to drag race a GTO that Royal had just finished prepping in OCTOBER. And it seems 100% certain he drove the same Blue car that went to C & D in NYC and on to Daytona.

The Red car Manifest shows a Date Produced of 11/2/63. The Blue car had already been bobcatted by then.

The Hot Rod mag report on the GTO appeared in their Dec '63 issue (hey Keith, your keys are laying on your copy of that mag, LOL!)

I don't think that mag would have hit the newsstands until after the Red car was already built and if Roger Proulx drove the Blue car in Oct., definitely was not out til after the Blue car had already been prepped by Royal.

The kicker is that my read of the Hot Rod review was FAVORABLE to the GTO, not the "bad press" that it was made out to be.

JW has written that the Blue car was equipped with 3.55 gears and an open diff. Clearly, if the pix are believed, this car was equipped with the Safe-T-Track locking diff.

And multiple articles published in the day starting with the Proulx article all say it had a 3.90 axle. Now I doubt that the writers/testers had any way to know what axle ratio was in the car (not indicated on the Window Sticker), so had to rely on what JW told them I would think. So do we believe what was in the articles or what was said many years later? I sure don't know, but it makes sense to me that the Blue car would have had 3.90 gears, why else tell people that it did?

JW has also claimed the testing was done with the Red car. But there is an interesting retrospective that appeared in the January '75 issue of C & D, written by David E. Davis. I bought that mag new in the infancy of my GTO obsession and still have it. David E. writes that John Jerome drove the "test car" down with his family and Wangers drove a "back-up GTO" down from Detroit. He mentions what fun they had in Daytona, at one point drove over Jerome's camera bag, busted the rear window in the rented Ford convertible, and "lunched the engine in the back-up car".

Twice in the '75 retrospective he refers to the "back-up" GTO and called the Blue car driven down by Jerome as the "test car". Why?

He took credit for writing most of the original article that was published with "help" from Jerome.

JW has said the testing at Daytona was done with the Red car. Many years after, he "admitted" the Red car went to Daytona with a 421.

But the David E. piece written in late '74, many years prior to JW's admission, seems to purposefully point to the Blue car as the car that was tested. Why call the Red car a "back-up" and mention the blown engine if it was the primary car tested in Daytona.

One further fact appearing in the original '64 C & D article. The Price as tested is given in the box with the acceleration results and technical data about the car as tested.

The Price as Tested is $3377.91. This is pretty close to what I am able to calculate for the Blue car with the options described for it in the article.

The Red car stickered for about $250-$300 more than the Blue car, not even close. If the acceleration test results were for the Red car, why was the price of the Blue car indicated?

The article does say they "ran dozens of acceleration tests on the two cars." Doesn't differentiate anywhere between the two of them, so if they saw any performance difference, it wasn't mentioned. They did talk about the difference obtained between the red line tires (higher mph) and drag slicks (lower et).

Both cars featured the Bobcat kit, I don't think there is any doubt about that. I suspect they also featured identical drivetrains. It would make sense that a "back-up" twin was there in case of a blown engine. Logically, you would not have wanted C & D to blow up the 421 car and wind up testing a 389 and reporting less impressive nos.

If the photographic evidence is clear that the engine in the Blue car was a 421, I would conclude C & D took the data it obtained from that car and reported it. No doubt, the Red car performed just as well until the motor went lame.

I believe the Blue car was built weeks ahead of the Red car. But I just don't think it was a non-VIN'd pre-production model. Calling it a "pilot" car really changes nothing, my understanding from those days, "pilot" cars were just the first very early production cars that came down the line at a snails pace while everybody learned their jobs and worked out the kinks before the line speed was sped up. But I doubt it was a "pilot" car either. Pilot production would have been long over by 9/11/63 when VIN 824P003147, one of the early Zone Announcement GTOs, was produced.

Somewhere between that VIN & the Red car VIN is likely the Blue car VIN. Sure wish Jim M. would spend the time to turn up the Manifest record for the Blue car, might at least tell us if the 3.90 axle was special ordered for it.

I love your passion for this stuff, John! And knowledge (I can only aspire to one day be "Tenney V."!). Wish I could do more to lend a hand in your quest to get to the bottom of this.

Again, I only "know" what I've read, heard and been relayed to me, fortunately, by people who were there.

And, so ...

I'm told the Red Car was purpose-built specifically for the Car and Driver test. Build dates/test dates indicate this is possible, if not likely. Particularly as it was only used in this one test, I understand.

Both Mr. Wangers and David E. have told me the red car was used for the acceleration #'s. JW stating it was purpose-built for this task. There's a pic of it in the article making a run on the Daytona straight.

It seems the blue car existed, and was used for press work/photos, earlier - as we've seen. Jim told me, and wrote in his book, that it was a pilot car, and was not built/modified in tandem with the red car.

A question I have is why lie at this point? Where's the upside?

Why would Jim finally cop to the 421 in the red car, but not the blue car. Maybe one of the reasons he admitted to the red car after all this time was because so many people had seen it up close w/their own two, and it essentially had already been "outed" for years?

But really, why then would it matter to keep the 421 in the blue car a secret? Once you're busted, who cares?


p.s. maybe Jerome's departure schedule couldn't be coordinated with that of his family, or perhaps he had stuff to tote (granted, how big's a stopwatch?!), hence the plane/rental car combo platter?

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

3) The "Blue Car" was supposedly destroyed in a fire many years ago.
Funny thing is, I have heard "rumors" over the years from very good sources that the car was not destroyed.

Meanwhile ...

We've kinda neglected the topic of the thread, the "Blue Car".

Sorry, John V.!

I think it was crushed, as Jim Wangers says in his book. He was there.

What is/was the fire story?

If it wasn't destroyed, where did it go post-Daytona?

Anyone see it since?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Meanwhile ...

We've kinda neglected the topic of the thread, the "Blue Car".

Sorry, John V.!

I think it was crushed, as Jim Wangers says in his book. He was there.

What is/was the fire story?

If it wasn't destroyed, where did it go post-Daytona?

Anyone see it since?

Back on the Blue Car:

Maybe you should ask Jack "The Hurst Shifty Doctor" Watson

Tom Vaught

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Meanwhile ...

We've kinda neglected the topic of the thread, the "Blue Car".

Sorry, John V.!

I think it was crushed, as Jim Wangers says in his book. He was there.

What is/was the fire story?

If it wasn't destroyed, where did it go post-Daytona?

Anyone see it since?

First I didnt realize this thread was for the "Blue" car. My apologies to John V.

If we were to try and get an idea of what might have been going through Jim Wangers head at the time of the C&D test, maybe that would give us an idea about the intent of the use of the Blue Car..

So I would surmise that the Blue car was setup only to appease the C&D writers who who more into the European styling, ride & comfort that a car they thought should have. Wangers knowing he'd have to win them over either way gave them what they wanted and then used the Red car as the one finishing touch by blowing the C&D writers out of the water with this car that could go 0-60 in "4.6 seconds".

I think what happened, was in Jim's mind, it was the acceleration tests that were more important than a car in those days that could handle.

The fact that the Red car was saved, even with a blown engine(spun bearing) shows that dag racing was the name of the game and if the Blue car had been fitted for the acceleration tests, then maybe Tenney would have the Blue car sitting out in his garage, (it better be in your garage and not parked out in the cold)
& this thread would have been about the whereabouts of the Red car.

The Blue car, which flat towed the Red car back to, I assume, Royal Pontiac, was never heard from again seems to point in my opinion that it was given back to Pontiac for the crusher?

Maybe even Wangers thought about converting the Blue car over to the same specs as the Red one once the C&D tests was over but couldn't get the approval or the money to do that?? So the Blue car served its purpose which was to appease the C&D writers.

Imagine, two 421 HO, Bobcatted, GTO's beating the tar off of every car they went up against in 1964?? Now that's ADVERTISING.

My 2 cents,
Don

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tenney

I don't know why 3.23's were initially specified on the manifest. I'll ask.

Mr. Wangers' response ...

"...when the "Red Car" was built, it was selected from a group of Sport Coupes already on the Assembly Line, scheduled for Dealer Stock. It was then transferred to the Engineering Garage where the proper equipment was installed."