[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

He could very well have been lied to by Frank R, Milt, and the rest of the guys at Royal prior to the road tests. He was their customer, they were trying to sell a "Royal Bobcat" package and generate more work for the dealership.

Jim wasn't a Royal customer, Tom. He put them in business as a performance entity, and back-door Pontiac engineering outfit.

Was aware of this before there would've been a benefit in making anything up. If you worked for Pontiac or their ad agency, it's also where you got your company car. Jim Wangers set this up for Ace.

Don't think Milt arrived at Royal until just after the Car and Driver test?

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Jim wasn't a Royal customer, Tom. He put them in business as a performance entity, and back-door Pontiac engineering outfit.

Was aware of this before there would've been a benefit in making anything up. If you worked for Pontiac or their ad agency, it's also where you got your company car. Jim Wangers set this up for Ace.

Don't think Milt arrived at Royal until just after the Car and Driver test?

Milt says in his book that he wasnt allowed to see the motor in the C&D car when it would come in for work. Either Brumfield would shut the hood if Milt would go to talk to him or a sheet/cover would be place over the engine so no prying eyes could see it.

Don

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by SD421

Milt says in his book that he wasnt allowed to see the motor in the C&D car when it would come in for work. Either Brumfield would shut the hood if Milt would go to talk to him or a sheet/cover would be place over the engine so no prying eyes could see it.

Don

Indeed, Don. It was on the DL even internally.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Jim wasn't a Royal customer, Tom. He put them in business as a performance entity, and back-door Pontiac engineering outfit.

Was aware of this before there would've been a benefit in making anything up. If you worked for Pontiac or their ad agency, it's also where you got your company car. Jim Wangers set this up for Ace.

Don't think Milt arrived at Royal until just after the Car and Driver test?

I do lots of work with a former RACE shop (Road Race) in Livonia, Michigan. They do a lot of prototype fabrication stuff for us. Install engines, chassis work, water jet work, machining work, design work.

No different that Jim Wangers setting up Royal Pontiac as a place for people in GM to get stuff done, be it company car work, fab work, engine work etc.

I sign the paperwork that approves the payments get paid. THERE IS NO DOUBT IN ANYONE'S MIND THAT I AM THE "CUSTOMER" AND WHAT I WANT HAPPENS OR I GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Royal WAS a Pontiac Dealership before Jim selected them for his special jobs and the other perks they received. No different than the company I deal with.

I don't rubber-stamp anything but at the same time I am not standing there looking over their shoulders when they are building the parts for me. I want it done, I leave it to them as Master Fabricators to make it happen based on my designs/wishes. I am the customer!

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I do lots of work with a former RACE shop (Road Race) in Livonia, Michigan. They do a lot of prototype fabrication stuff for us. Install engines, chassis work, water jet work, machining work, design work.

No different that Jim Wangers setting up Royal Pontiac as a place for people in GM to get stuff done, be it company car work, fab work, engine work etc.

I sign the paperwork that approves the payments get paid. THERE IS NO DOUBT IN ANYONE'S MIND THAT I AM THE "CUSTOMER" AND WHAT I WANT HAPPENS OR I GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Royal WAS a Pontiac Dealership before Jim selected them for his special jobs and the other perks they received. No different than the company I deal with.

I don't rubber-stamp anything but at the same time I am not standing there looking over their shoulders when they are building the parts for me. I want it done, I leave it to them as Master Fabricators to make it happen based on my designs/wishes. I am the customer!

Tom Vaught

Sub-contractor, then? Would guess you've selected and awarded business to a group that you trust work within the parameters given, yes?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Sub-contractor, then? Would guess you've selected and awarded business to a group that you trust work within the parameters given, yes?

No such thing as "trust" in Engineering. You make requests and you verify that the requests were carried out properly. If the requests are not carried out properly (typically only takes a couple of times), you go somewhere else where they can "follow directions".

No yelling, you just move your business elsewhere. The management in the company you were working with typically addresses the issue of miss-communication.

I try to eliminate as much miss-communication as possible by checking on the work often, having the company take photos that are e-mailed to me, and then keeping those e-mails if I need additional parts made later. I can reference the previous work by using those photos. We also make revisions to parts (as we learn), therefore a photo history give everyone the best info.

I give out many "assignments" in a year, I cannot keep track of them all without "memory clues". I could see where it would be very difficult to remember every task given to Royal from a year ago, much less, 20, 30, 40 years ago.

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

No such thing as "trust" in Engineering. You make requests and you verify that the requests were carried out properly. If the requests are not carried out properly (typically only takes a couple of times), you go somewhere else where they can "follow directions".

Indeed.

I may've misunderstood your earlier post, Tom. But it'd be highly unlikely (and bad bidness) for the crew at Royal to "sneak" a 421 into a car unannounced, or unbeknownst to Jim or Pontiac for the Car and Driver (or any) test.

Would guess Jim didn't have engineering install the 421 without approval to do so, either.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Indeed.

I may've misunderstood your earlier post, Tom. But it'd be highly unlikely (and bad bidness) for the crew at Royal to "sneak" a 421 into a car unannounced, or unbeknownst to Jim or Pontiac for the Car and Driver (or any) test.

Would guess Jim didn't have engineering install the 421 without approval to do so, either.

Based on that logic, Tenney, you move from a person(s) slipping a 421 engine into a road-test car without Jim Wangers or Pontiac being aware of the swap, therefore their (Wangers, DeLorean, GM) representation of the vehicle to the press was an honest mistake.

I would rather believe that deal vs a effort by Wangers, DeLorean, GM to intentionally misrepresent the vehicle to the press to gain sales over say Ford or Chrysler. Enough mistakes are made normally in the auto industry without that business. Street Racing is one thing, misrepresentation of the vehicle to the press is another.

Tom Vaught