[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I am glad that it was reunited with the car it came from.

Tom Vaught

Me, too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P-IcFiztdk

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Me, too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P-IcFiztdk

And everyone around is wondering if its really that "old" red car that is making those sounds!! I notice that that the driver in that Jeep SUV was trying to get the heck out of the way at the end of the video. They ruined your run!!!
LOL Beautiful just beautiful!

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by SD421

And everyone around is wondering if its really that "old" red car that is making those sounds!! I notice that that the driver in that Jeep SUV was trying to get the heck out of the way at the end of the video. They ruined your run!!!
LOL Beautiful just beautiful!

No real room to run there, Don! Just a slow 2nd-gear merge into traffic. A brief moment w/the four extra barrels and skinny little tires is all that is.

[John V.]

The car in the pic with the "W" scrawled on the firewall is the Code W Nocturne Blue car.

If I'm not mistaken, Wangers eventually copped to the 421 having been installed in the Red Car.

But the story goes that the Blue Car did not get the 421 and did not have the 3.90 rear axle. Both claims that I find shaky.

I may have underestimated J.W.s role in both of these cars.

I still personally consider the story of the Blue Car in regard to the Car & Driver article to be the more interesting of the two cars. No doubt the Red Car went on to have a glorious post test history and Tenney should be rightfully proud to own it today.

But the Car & Driver staff spent many more days and put on many more miles with the Blue Car including the road trip that John Jerome took with his then wife and young kids for a Christmas holiday in Florida, driving the Blue Car from NYC to Daytona.

The C&D staff gushed over the Blue Car during the time they got to spend with it in NYC.

And it was the Blue Car with manual steering and the Michigan plate HJ-4471 that seemed to repeatedly be the subject of other test reports during the model year, including I'm reasonably certain, the other article about the '64 that appears in the same issue of C&D where J.W. is actually named. I've only reviewed a few of these articles, far fewer than the 20 some mags that W.E. mentions.

But I'm not sure the Red Car equipped with PS (which the C&D report says was preferred by the writer, most likely Davis, Jr.) was the subject of any other test report articles.

And whether it was or not, the C&D article goosed sales of the GTO and I believe it was the Blue Car that had the most to do with why C&D wrote so favorably about the GTO.

If J.W. knew what really became of the Blue Car, it will be a shame if that story never comes to light. And also a shame that if the car had a real VIN, that PHS has not uncovered the Manifest for it. J.W. claimed it was a no VIN pre-production build but I remain unconvinced of that claim.

If the pic is proof of anything, it seems to me, it is proof the Blue Car had a 421 transplanted into it.

Such a shame that we know so little about this particular '64 GTO.

[War eagle]

Originally Posted by John V.

The car in the pic with the "W" scrawled on the firewall is the Code W Nocturne Blue car.

If I'm not mistaken, Wangers eventually copped to the 421 having been installed in the Red Car.

But the story goes that the Blue Car did not get the 421 and did not have the 3.90 rear axle. Both claims that I find shaky.

I may have underestimated J.W.s role in both of these cars.

I still personally consider the story of the Blue Car in regard to the Car & Driver article to be the more interesting of the two cars. No doubt the Red Car went on to have a glorious post test history and Tenney should be rightfully proud to own it today.

But the Car & Driver staff spent many more days and put on many more miles with the Blue Car including the road trip that John Jerome took with his then wife and young kids for a Christmas holiday in Florida, driving the Blue Car from NYC to Daytona.

The C&D staff gushed over the Blue Car during the time they got to spend with it in NYC.

And it was the Blue Car with manual steering and the Michigan plate HJ-4471 that seemed to repeatedly be the subject of other test reports during the model year, including I'm reasonably certain, the other article about the '64 that appears in the same issue of C&D where J.W. is actually named. I've only reviewed a few of these articles, far fewer than the 20 some mags that W.E. mentions.

But I'm not sure the Red Car equipped with PS (which the C&D report says was preferred by the writer, most likely Davis, Jr.) was the subject of any other test report articles.

And whether it was or not, the C&D article goosed sales of the GTO and I believe it was the Blue Car that had the most to do with why C&D wrote so favorably about the GTO.

If J.W. knew what really became of the Blue Car, it will be a shame if that story never comes to light. And also a shame that if the car had a real VIN, that PHS has not uncovered the Manifest for it. J.W. claimed it was a no VIN pre-production build but I remain unconvinced of that claim.

If the pic is proof of anything, it seems to me, it is proof the Blue Car had a 421 transplanted into it.

Such a shame that we know so little about this particular '64 GTO.

John. I very much agree that at least the car in the pic with the W has the 421, but are we sure we are looking at the blue car? I have asked your opinion before on this. Those pics supplied could be of several shoots. Maybe the W was the "tag Wangers" instead of Nocturn blue. I see the red car has the California plate 015, with vac. throttle. That tag shows up in numerous articles and hung on converts (2 different ones) and on a couple of coupe stories. 2 magazines dated 3/64 show the coupe with out the W but has the sail panel "Bobcat" emblem, HJ-4471 plate, and one with mechanical linkage. Confusing to say the least. (Could be we are seeing the addition of the Bobcat and linkage before and after on the same car) Maybe I should bundle up these mags and head them your way on loan. Jim`s collection would be better and larger if he would consent. This would save you at least 200.00 to 400.00 buying them individually on ebay for the research. (I would love to know how the red car got to California and back for the articles....driven or shipped. If the red and blue were driven to Florida, maybe the red was driven to Calif. Low gears and highway are no fun and hard on engines)

I just discovered another article by Alex Walordy where he compares the Mustang to another GTO this time a hardtop with the vinyl top and license plate ZP-1516. (Science and Mechanics)

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by War eagle

I just discovered another article by Alex Walordy where he compares the Mustang to another GTO this time a hardtop with the vinyl top and license plate ZP-1516. (Science and Mechanics)

Alex Walordy is credited as having penned the CARS 03/64 article, as well as the one in Speed & Custom 04/64. Allen Hunt wrote the story in the 03/64 issue of PHR.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by War eagle

Maybe the W was the "tag Wangers" instead of Nocturn blue.

Not likely.

Post #49 from this thread:

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I don't think so. The red car was the one that had "Tag Wangers" on the build sheet, and has no notation on the firewall. Plus, one of the stories posed here is that the blue car was already built and procured for this activity after the fact, so it would not have been destined for Mr Wangers at the time it was going down the line.

I think we are settling on the W being the code for Nocturne Blue. You are correct: it would appear on the cowl tag, but you would not be able to read that code from very far away, especially in the dimly lit assembly plants of the day. That's why the build sheets or build manifests were usually placed in a conspicuous place - to make it easier to read and choose the correct parts. So - a big "W" on the firewall alerts workers the upcoming car is Nocturne Blue, as opposed to black, for example.

(Even today it is difficult to judge colors inside of the assembly plant, both due to the poor lighting or the difference in appearance due to the unnatural/florescent lights).

K

Additionally - it would be fairly obscure to simply place a "W" to indicate "Wangers" when the precedent was "W" for Nocturne Blue.

Lastly - any time we needed to denote something special on a vehicle going down the line we would simply hang an 8.5" x 11" piece of paper on the front with the verbiage spelled out: ie, "First 2013", or "Marketing Vehicle" or "VIP".

Any time I was following a vehicle down the line the guys would usually ask: "...'zis yours?". I'd say "yep" and they would do an extra good job while it was in their station.

K

[War eagle]

Tom you've taken us no where regarding the one single post of the pyramid. (Your off for sure). I never underestimated him and forever believed that when asked where the "swap" took place and he indicated at Royal, then admitting in his book that he did the swap, I knew he was way more involved than others here think. His racing dates way before the gto as well. Again the pyramid pic may have been pulled when discovered and not released again. There may have been another reason we don`t see it in other publications or no reason at all..

[War eagle]

Yes I have seen those pics in several period mags............all except the pyramid passenger side pic. Lots of speculation why it never showed up like the other pics in the other mags. (as far as my 20 some mags go). Could Wangers have seen the damning image and pulled it after it made the single mag? Possible he didn`t know about the 421 differences? Again....it seems odd that it never made another mag. Also the "secret" never revealed by anyone at Royal doing the work......for years! Talk about loyalty.

[John V.]

W.E., I'll pass on the reference material loan. I'm way behind on my current reading as it is!

Do you have the March C&D issue? Have you read the article written by Roger Proulx starting on page 70? I think it is informative.

I am convinced that the car JW encouraged him to drag race at Vets Ville Dragway in Toledo, the GTO that JW explained on a "drowsy afternoon in October" in Proulx' office had recently been tuned at Royal, was the same GTO that was driven to NYC in December to be tested over the course of 10 days by C&D staff and THEN driven by John Jerome with his young family from NYC to Daytona for the testing. Proulx describes how "his" GTO was equipped and the description matches the description of the Blue car that was tested at Daytona.

Since this conversation occurred in October and the Red car was built 11/2/63 per the Manifest, I conclude Proulx drag raced the same Blue car that went to Daytona. I don't buy the story that JW tells about the Blue car.

I was not there, JW was. JW says the Blue car did not have a 421. I say picture evidence shows a Blue car that did. Some may consider me out of line here, but some of what I have read or seen attributed to JW just doesn't fit the evidence. People forget and confuse events in their life. I know I have.

W.E., the 015 plate was a Manufacturer's tag IIRC. Those tags could get swapped around. The Blue car shows up in at least two mag articles with the HJ-4471 Michigan tag. I believe it was legitimately registered and tagged with that plate, not a Manufacturer's tag, and was only worn by that particular car.

I have not explored it, but I am not certain that the Red car was the same Red car that was tested in California. I would doubt it would be the same car, is there evidence that it is?

Everybody is welcome to believe what they want here and hold their own opinions. Much of the evidence is circumstantial, so it isn't like the facts are indisputable. I am still interested in learning more about the Blue car if more is to be learned. I am convinced that C&D gushed over the Blue car. Only John Jerome and David E. Davis, Jr. spent any time with the Red car in the few days they were with it in Daytona. They and the rest of the C&D staff piled up over 3000 miles driving the Blue car in NYC and all but one staff member loved it. All told, the Blue car was in their possession about 2 weeks before it headed back to Michigan towing the Red car thru the New Year's Eve ice storm that hit the south on Dec. 31.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by John V.

Only John Jerome and David E. Davis, Jr. spent any time with the Red car in the few days they were with it in Daytona.

Time spent generating the road test #'s, per Jim and Dave (unless they're lying or forgot?).

Roger Proulx was a copywriter at McManus who created this ad ...

[War eagle]

Originally Posted by John V.

W.E., I'll pass on the reference material loan. I'm way behind on my current reading as it is!

Do you have the March C&D issue? Have you read the article written by Roger Proulx starting on page 70? I think it is informative.

I am convinced that the car JW encouraged him to drag race at Vets Ville Dragway in Toledo, the GTO that JW explained on a "drowsy afternoon in October" in Proulx' office had recently been tuned at Royal, was the same GTO that was driven to NYC in December to be tested over the course of 10 days by C&D staff and THEN driven by John Jerome with his young family from NYC to Daytona for the testing. Proulx describes how "his" GTO was equipped and the description matches the description of the Blue car that was tested at Daytona.

Since this conversation occurred in October and the Red car was built 11/2/63 per the Manifest, I conclude Proulx drag raced the same Blue car that went to Daytona. I don't buy the story that JW tells about the Blue car.

I was not there, JW was. JW says the Blue car did not have a 421. I say picture evidence shows a Blue car that did. Some may consider me out of line here, but some of what I have read or seen attributed to JW just doesn't fit the evidence. People forget and confuse events in their life. I know I have.

W.E., the 015 plate was a Manufacturer's tag IIRC. Those tags could get swapped around. The Blue car shows up in at least two mag articles with the HJ-4471 Michigan tag. I believe it was legitimately registered and tagged with that plate, not a Manufacturer's tag, and was only worn by that particular car.

I have not explored it, but I am not certain that the Red car was the same Red car that was tested in California. I would doubt it would be the same car, is there evidence that it is?

Everybody is welcome to believe what they want here and hold their own opinions. Much of the evidence is circumstantial, so it isn't like the facts are indisputable. I am still interested in learning more about the Blue car if more is to be learned. I am convinced that C&D gushed over the Blue car. Only John Jerome and David E. Davis, Jr. spent any time with the Red car in the few days they were with it in Daytona. They and the rest of the C&D staff piled up over 3000 miles driving the Blue car in NYC and all but one staff member loved it. All told, the Blue car was in their possession about 2 weeks before it headed back to Michigan towing the Red car thru the New Year's Eve ice storm that hit the south on Dec. 31.

John there is no proof the June Car Life car is the Wangers red car, but no proof its not. I would like to know also. The picture showing the vac throttle and no pyramid (transfer lug as sometimes called) doesn`t mean that is the car being tested. Only the fact that it is red and is tested by Car Life staff, recording 99 mph in the 1/4 with Calif plates is interesting.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by War eagle

John there is no proof the June Car Life car is the Wangers red car, but no proof its not. I would like to know also.

The Car Life car is a Hardtop. No post.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

The Car Life car is a Hardtop. No post.

I disagree Tenny, Not True, Both cars are Post Cars. I am old and half blind but not totally blind and can still
recognize a couple of "Post Cars" when I see them in a picture.
See Pics Attached.

Tom V.