[J GLASGO]

On a 69 Judge,is the EUN on the buildsheet? I know on some years it is,and some years its not.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Nope.
Won't be on there.

Never seen any buildsheet with EUN on it, for any year GTO.

The Billing History Card for a 69 would have it on there.
And pre-69 BHC's - for sure.

The old metal Protect-o-Plates had EUN on them.

[ramair2]

BVZ,

"The old metal Protect-o-Plates had EUN on them." Can you elaborate? Circa what years are you talking about?

How does one get a 1969 Billing History Card?

Also, to raise a dead, kicked-around horse again....why does PHS provide a BHC for 1968 (that shows the EUN) but we do not get one from PHS (and therefore dont know the EUN) for 1969+ Pontiacs?

[gregsgtos2]

I have a old style PHS for a 69 Judge I used to own that has the EUN on it. The only 69 one I have seen.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Never seen any buildsheet with EUN on it, for any year GTO....

Agree - and it makes sense, since the build sheet was primarily a Fisher Body document (contains some chassis information, but was not intended to be the main chassis manifest).

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

The old metal Protect-o-Plates had EUN on them.

Agree again, as my '65 Protect-o-Plate has the EUN on it.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by ramair2

...How does one get a 1969 Billing History Card?

Also, to raise a dead, kicked-around horse again....why does PHS provide a BHC for 1968 (that shows the EUN) but we do not get one from PHS (and therefore dont know the EUN) for 1969+ Pontiacs?

'69 Billing History Card is one of the documents provided when you send for a PHS package.

And, while PHS in it's early days provided the EUN when available, I don't believe they provide it under any circumstances any more.

K

[John V.]

The PHS docs for '69 are Dealer Invoice records that I have seen. Keith, they are very different from the '65 Billing History Card records (the IBM Hollerith Card) that PHS sends out for '65s.

I have heard that prior to PHS, when PMD was sending out the docs for free, there might have been a different '69 record that was sent out. Perhaps that is the type of record that gregsgtos2 has for the Judge that includes the EUN?

I have not heard that PHS purposely has stopped sending out EUN data (I usually call it the Motor Unit No. or MUN because that is how it was referred to in '64 stuff, my area of interest).

The '64 records from Fremont (a Manifest document) and from KC & Balt (a Chevy Shipping Order form), all include the MUN. On the Fremont form it is typed in. On the KC/Balt docs, they stamped the vehicle Ident-O-Plate (what the P-O-P was called in '64) on the Shipping Order form, and the MUN was recorded on the Ident-O-Plate. Although these are sometimes illegible because the microfilm records are poor, AFAIK, PHS continues to distribute these without alteration.

The '64 records (a different type of Manifest record) from the Pontiac Plant do not have an entry box for the MUN, as it appears that the Pontiac Plant record was produced prior to Final Assembly, so the MUN was not yet known.

If PHS is purposefully not disseminating EUNs from records they have available for the '69 up vehicles, I'm not aware of that. What would be the point? If they divulged the EUNs, it makes it easy for restamps. It they don't divulge the EUNs, nobody could tell if a block was original or not by the EUN, so the result is the same. You still don't know if a block is original either way.

gregsgtos2, could you post up the Judge doc with the EUN on it? I assume it is some sort of post production record if it includes the EUN.

From what I understand, the '68 records are provided on a "Billing History" form, they are not the same type as the '65 "Billing History Card" IBM punchcard. The '68 forms typically include the engine code and part of the EUN, but perhaps not the entire 6 digit no. Is that correct?

If a similar form was once available from PMD for the '69s, I've never seen one. But there is a good chance PHS doesn't have them, otherwise I can't think of a good reason why they wouldn't furnish them in addition to the Dealer Invoice records they do provide.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

All the 69 and newer BHC's have probably been destroyed.
PHS may have never gotten them. Its never been said either way.
The invoices are much easier to send out - since they don't have to be translated like the BHC.

I've only seen 2 specimens of 69 BHC.

The Black Judge race car that Don King and Greg both previously owned was 1 of them.
Neither of them ever posted up a readable version for us by request (ahem ahem hint again). I just happened to spot it from a distance in a picture Don had posted and it was laying up on the dash.

CR III 4spd Pattern Judge on eBay years ago was the other.
I posted that one in a thread we had before about EUN.

Both of these were obtained way back - even before the free PMD invoices became available. Most likely a personal favor from someone in the brass section - fred, jim, etc...

I have never seen nor heard of anyone getting a 69 BHC sent through the free PMD service days, or by PHS.

A 3rd 1969 one is in hand by another member i saw recently state he had one for his Judge. I "think" it was rich sargent who said that.

And believe i have a 1970 specimen on another crashed computer.
Probably posted it in that thread too.

I think the metal P-o-P's ended in 1967 or 1968.

[GTO JOHN]

Here are the documents I have for the ebay Judge. Sold for $17,450 back in December 2005.

[GTO JOHN]

Here is the car which some of you might remember.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Wow John, you're GOOD on that stuff !!

That car was sold with a rebuilt and re-stamped WS engine with proper date code.
The EUN and VIN were left unstamped. Next owner had open options.

I think that is/was the only pattern stick Judge i've seen with factory A/C.
A couple/few automatic patterns have come through with A/C.

[gregsgtos2]

I ordered my phs for the judge i am talking about after I bought it from Don-I got the same paperwork he did.

[John V.]

So from what gregsgtos2 says, the Billing History came direct from PHS.

So either the records for some '69s are Billing History while the vast majority are Dealer Invoices or PHS is holding out on you guys.

My bet is that the microfilmed record was the Billing History for just a few while the majority of the time it was not. I just don't think PHS is intentionally holding out.

I guess somebody could request the PHS for the ebay car and see if you get the Billing History. Assuming you do, that would mean the Dealer Invoice record for this car is not available. So nothing fishy, just the way it is for some '69 VINs it seems.

Couple things I noticed about the ebay Judge record.

It was originally shipped to a Zone Storage facility in the Pontiac, Mich Zone (07-992) before being sold to Packer Pontiac (07-607). Sold out of Zone Stock according to the Invoice Date on 2/14/69. So didn't sit all that long, couple weeks maybe if I'm seeing the Time Built code correctly.

But I don't think that explains the different record. Plenty of Zone Stock '69 builds have regular Dealer Invoice records.

My bet, the clerk that was assigned to do the microfilming of records sometimes filmed the wrong record either by mistake or perhaps because sometimes maybe the wrong hard copy was retained.

No more unusual than the handful of Company Car records that turn up with 2 or 3 Dealer Invoice records for the same car showing the progression from Co. Car delivery to eventual sale to a retail dealer.

[Region Warrior]

Back b4 i heard of PHS(87-89?), sent a letter to PMD to see if they had info on my 67FB.
Knew the drivetrain was original, but it was minus intake and exhuast(had trip's and hddrs), and aftrmrkt wheels.
Anyway, PMD sent a copy of dealer invoice(includes EUN) with couple pages the dealer used to spec out a car.
Plus a basic explanation. Like GTO special engine options also used in FB's.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by gregsgtos2

I ordered my phs for the judge i am talking about after I bought it from Don-I got the same paperwork he did.

That is interesting info for sure.
No reason to doubt it either.

I "think" Don said what i saw on the dash, came with the car from prev owner.
And i'm getting old in the noodle fast too. so ... lol

Anyway
POST THAT SUCKER UP FOR US ! ! ! please ! ! !

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Region Warrior

Anyway, PMD sent a copy of dealer invoice(includes EUN) with couple pages the dealer used to spec out a car.

That was probably a copy of Billing History Card - BHC.
68 and older - thats all i've seen on them.

My 67 GTO BHC has Engine Unit Number and Tranny Unit Number listed.

A lot of 68's have just had zero's in the EUN and TUN boxes.

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I think the metal P-o-P's ended in 1967 or 1968.

went to plastic

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

A lot of 68's have just had zero's in the EUN and TUN boxes.

Real common on the April/May dated RA I cars.

[gregsgtos2]

The trans unit number is also on there.

[68pongto]

When my brother sent away to PMD in 1987 for paperwork on his 69 Judge, all he recieved was the Dealer Invoice from PMD, no Billing History Card. Back in the day when Pontiac did it for FREE! Scott