[SD421]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

So your telling me the header is built in a jig and it can only be built that way? it can't be tacked together in sections and then assembled on the car and finish welded, I wonder how the prototype header was built then, or was the jig built before the header? Which came first, the jig or the prototype original header?

Ron, I wasn't born yesterday and the headers I built (admittedly they weren't tri Y style) were built on the car and welded up off the car. I have built enough custom exhaust to realize that welding the tubes up off the car can present it's own set of problems, but I have never used a jig and have successfully completed the ones I have started. I only have 2 arms am not blind either, and as far as I know I have no ancestry to apes, and with my obvious handicaps I still got them done. It is just is a question of fortitude and ingenuity. "Can't, never got a damn thing done" quote courtesy of my deceased father.

Building headers isn't easy no matter if your building 4 tube or tri Ys for the first time (hence the reason people make big bucks for custom headers), however it isn't rocket science and no voodoo or magic is involved either. I have never seen a jig or a mold built before the original pattern was made for any part.

For the sake of standardization & getting the header built reasonably fast, a jig works great. It allows you to crank out headers at a faster pace.

When Ron was training me to build the headers it was alot faster to build having the jig right there.
Thats how the other header guys do it. They use jigs.



Don

[Sirrotica]

SD421, I don't question if it's faster to fabricate them with a jig, I know it is, I am fully aware of how most companies build headers, this isn't your average header company though. The original comment asked of Ron by another poster, which still hasn't been answered is, If the headers were tacked together in the jig and shipped to the man who has already paid for them, could he finish the final welding himself? Obviously he needs them in a timely manner and is willing to finish weld them himself if he can just get them in his hands finished or not. This is the only reason I even posted on this subject. I really don't want to be involved in the mess since I don't have a dog in the hunt, I simply stated if they were tacked together and shipped could the person asking the question, finish them himself. I answered that I believe he could, that's how I became involved in the post. And now that that is cleared up I'm done with the post.

Larry, even if the headers are copied from HO original pattern header there was an original built sometime, somewhere, by someone without a jig. It seems to me that someone from HO stated he farmed the job out to a header company and I'd guess they kept the first set of jigs. I know that is a fact that someone made a header and used the actual car for a jig initially, then after the header pattern was made and final welded, a jig was made from the original pattern. I'm done posting on the subject and I feel sorry for the people waiting for 5+ years for headers. I know I could have made a pattern and made my own tri Ys in the last 5 years. Good luck to all involved in the saga, I hope it turns out well for all involved........

[BVR421]

Following this tri y deal thru the years has been most fascinating in that it becomes clear that most people only see, hear, read, understand what they want to and not what is really there in clear print. Some have surely read the dozens of pages of posts from people getting nothing for their money and in spite of that decided to throw new money at Ron in hope of a miracle. Then they seem bewildered when their result is the same as many others. They only saw what they wanted to see. The same holds true on the welding/jig deal. The last 8-9 posts on this page really illustrate that point. Reads like 'Who's on First?' w/Abbott & Costello. Very entertaining! Most of the time after reading these tri y posts i realize Ron is the only sane person involved.

[SD421]

Originally Posted by bonneville Joe

This is just from my welding experience, and I've never welded headers but the only way I could see this method working is if you have a TIG welder. Most custom header builders use TIG. It's tougher to use, takes more skill and takes longer but the payback is the weld is much cleaner and cooler. The key is the cooler part. MIG welders heat the metal much more rapidly which distorts it. It would have to be in a jig to MIG weld it to keep it all uniform to its intended shape.

This is the reason why you need the jig. The headers have been Mig welded & not Heli Arc'd (Tig Welded).

Bonneville Joe hit the nail on the head.

Don

[aronhk_md]

BVR421 - its also quite obvious that Ron has come back in an attempt to make good on old orders. Has he taken in new money? Yes. Are people still getting headers...both new and old orders? A bit here and a bit there. People running scams dont tend to set themselves up for this much abuse. They pull a fast one and disappear entirely, NEVER to be seen or heard from again. Thats the scammers profile.

You are right though.....there are pages and pages of Ron's story.....plenty of unhappy people through the years. Those who are still willing to give him a shot have done so........do you really feel the need to add a comment that while on the surface is quite mild yet carries an undercurrent of.....something else?



Regarding the jig question...........I think many here missed part of Ron's response, and the one part that actually kills the idea of tackwelding and then shipping for final welding later. He states clearly that unlike most 4 tube headers, these tri-y's due to placement of some of the middle tubes (and on a 4 tube there ARE NO middle tube pieces) you would be unable to successfully reach all the weld areas for final welding once they are all together (tacked). So essentially some pieces at least must be FULLY welded before the next piece is added on the jig.

Again, I want to point out I am not acting champion here for Ron. I am not his cheerleader. Just trying to keep the info as straight as possible since at various points I may have known a bit or two more than others. I WANT to see him succeed. But I am not recommending you or anyone buy headers from him. Only YOU the reader can make that decision for yourself. Do it with open eyes.

Ron, I'm rooting for you. Make it happen. Good luck.

[T/A Fanatic]

I purchased the new "Tri-Y" headers from Ron for my roundport motor in the very first original order. I've run them for about 6 years now, and have been very satisfied with their performance. Over the years, and especially lately, I've decided to replace the headers with the RARE manifolds. There is nothing wrong with the headers, I'm just slowing returning my '71 T/A to a stock configuration (or as close as I can get). Sometime this coming Fall I'll post up when I'm ready to sell, and someone will be able to get a set pretty quick, for a good price, although in a used condition.

I have followed this sage over the years as well. I too, feel for all those who have been waiting on their headers, and hope for the best for all involved.

Alan

[SD421]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

Regarding the jig question...........I think many here missed part of Ron's response, and the one part that actually kills the idea of tackwelding and then shipping for final welding later. He states clearly that unlike most 4 tube headers, these tri-y's due to placement of some of the middle tubes (and on a 4 tube there ARE NO middle tube pieces) you would be unable to successfully reach all the weld areas for final welding once they are all together (tacked). So essentially some pieces at least must be FULLY welded before the next piece is added on the jig.

Forgot about that. You do have to weld up each tube individually and that means having to remove the other tubes.

Good call Aron.

-Don

[bonneville Joe]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

I welded mine with a mig and oxy acetylene, key is to weld one part a little and then weld somewhere else so the heat isn't concentrated. Just a little experience and common sense is all it takes, no magic involved.

I weld on a daily basis. Replacing large patch panels requires you keep moving to not warp your panels. Same applies here. Problem with using a mig welder in this situation (bouncing back and forth) is you litterally open up the possiblity for having leaks in the tubing. TIG welders allows you to stay on the area you are working on to keep that clean "roll of nickles" look going. A look that you will probably want to keep instead of going back and griding the uglier mig welds. Your method would work just fine. It just depends on someone's skill level and equipment. It's not a question of someone is right and someone is wrong. It just depends on how you attack it and what you want as your final result.

[roadrage david]

Chek this link out, Ron Watt Tri-Y headers klick sec you tube link 700 hp http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=663834
Roger Bolier wanted me to say that Ron Watt is a stand up guy!!.

[aronhk_md]

David.......Rogers car is incredible....been following it, Are you saying he has a set of Ron's Tri-Y's on the car?

[big_oil]

I just ordered a set of Dougs headers from Butler Performance. So when I get my Tri-y's I will have a set of headers for sale at a nice discount.

[texasdave]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

David.......Rogers car is incredible....been following it, Are you saying he has a set of Ron's Tri-Y's on the car?

I actually conversed with Roger on Facebook a month or so ago. He saw the photo of the Tri-Y's that I have ordered in my gallery. He asked if they were Ron's and I told him yes, they "will" be Ron's and that I had just used a stock photo and that I had a pair on order.

Roger is looking to pick up a few more sets I think. Anyway, he raves about the performance gains from Ron's product and say there isn't a better product out there.

Great guy, glad I got to visit with him for awhile.

Meanwhile, anyone heard anything from Ron lately? Anything at all? Just keeping my fingers crossed.

[Jacks Poncho]

Ron told me to post if I wanted. I just got mine yesterday. I used to follow up on it on the work computer since I dont have my own computer. I was surpised to get the call from him since I have been out of work for over 3 months now & its a hit & miss when I can get to a computer.

We talked for about a 1/2 hr & he says that lots of good things have happened in the last few weeks both with needed tools & the welder situation.

He says for the last week he has been able to get past the need to hire a welder because he was able to find out the problem with his own welder. That & a few very good tips he got from a PY member he says the welds are just as good or even better than any he had to pay to have done before. I'm not going into specifics on the issue (since I dont know & its none of my business) but with all I heard all the build problems are addressed. So except for any funds for the materials portion of the build. Hes getting materials when he gets the funds.

Also I have followed this for a long time now on the forums & I never felt the need to post or become a member of the forums. But thought I would because he mentioned it. In my own oppinion from what I have observed it does no good for the guys that have no horse in the race to even voice there oppinion on it. Since it clearly doesn't help but most likely stalls his efforts which in turn hurts the guys he is trying to take care of. Which seems to be oviouse & I'm sure a small few may have genuine good intentions Im also sure that others do it just to be jerks or stir the pot.

[texasdave]

Originally Posted by Jacks Poncho

Ron told me to post if I wanted. I just got mine yesterday. I used to follow up on it on the work computer since I dont have my own computer. I was surpised to get the call from him since I have been out of work for over 3 months now & its a hit & miss when I can get to a computer.

We talked for about a 1/2 hr & he says that lots of good things have happened in the last few weeks both with needed tools & the welder situation.

He says for the last week he has been able to get past the need to hire a welder because he was able to find out the problem with his own welder. That & a few very good tips he got from a PY member he says the welds are just as good or even better than any he had to pay to have done before. I'm not going into specifics on the issue (since I dont know & its none of my business) but with all I heard all the build problems are addressed. So except for any funds for the materials portion of the build. Hes getting materials when he gets the funds.

Also I have followed this for a long time now on the forums & I never felt the need to post or become a member of the forums. But thought I would because he mentioned it. In my own oppinion from what I have observed it does no good for the guys that have no horse in the race to even voice there oppinion on it. Since it clearly doesn't help but most likely stalls his efforts which in turn hurts the guys he is trying to take care of. Which seems to be oviouse & I'm sure a small few may have genuine good intentions Im also sure that others do it just to be jerks or stir the pot.

Thanks for the update, some good news in there for sure.

[Skip Fix]

"these tri-y's due to placement of some of the middle tubes (and on a 4 tube there ARE NO middle tube pieces) you would be unable to successfully reach all the weld areas for final welding once they are all together (tacked). "

I think some of the tubes on my Hooker round ports you couldn't get to all the welds if it was all tacked together also.

[455GRIN]

Good news...maybe there is a chance for the rest of that are wating.

Jack when did you order your TriYs? thanks for the update

[76LQ9TA]

Why doesn't Ron come on here and update this himself? List all of the outstanding orders and the order in which they will be made. I really don't see any additional people sending money for headers considering the amount of people that are still waiting. Where did the money go? I doubt that there is more than $100 material cost in a set of headers.

[SD421]

Originally Posted by 76LQ9TA

Why doesn't Ron come on here and update this himself? List all of the outstanding orders and the order in which they will be made. I really don't see any additional people sending money for headers considering the amount of people that are still waiting. Where did the money go? I doubt that there is more than $100 material cost in a set of headers.

Actually there is more than $100 in materials.

I havent posted this but I will, just to show you guys that you arent the only ones who are waiting. The deal I have with Ron Watt is that for the help I gave him last year was that I will get a set of headers for my 1966 GTO. I could have gotten the set that was used when my car was used as a mockup for the A bodies but I passed on getting a set until some of the A-Body guys get theirs. So I wait. My motor is not together yet so I can afford to.

In fact it was Ron Clark AKA Tin Tiger (Watt's former partner) who first promised me a set without asking Ron Watt first. This was before I had even gone up to the shop to help out last September. So considering that Watt honored that deal has impressed me more considering it was Clark who had told me specifically that he was going to "take away the business" from Ron Watt. Yes, you heard me right.

Ron lately has figured out how to weld the headers himself with better welds.

There is no hate crap here as you would hear from a whiny Clark BUT the truth. When you dont follow the rules you get kicked off the forum. Any forum.

Don

[aronhk_md]

I too have conversed with Ron in the past few days and confirmed that those ARE Ron's Tribal Tube Tri-Y headers on Roger's 70 TA Titus clone/porsche beating 700 hp Butler built monster. LOL.

How about that for real world power production? Anybody want to downplay what these headers can do now? From what I've seen of Roger's car there isnt a 2nd rate nut on it....he wouldnt choose to put something on that car if it didnt perform. As a matter of fact, he seems like the kind of guy who would throw anything 2nd rate in the junk heap.

Just to set a mistake back on track.......somewhere Roger listed by accident that his Tri-Y's were 1 and 7/8". They are in fact 1 and 3/4"...same as any that have been made.

Ron IS going to be making bigger ones shortly though......2" and bigger. Stay tuned, because he is finally pulling in the issues that have been out of control for him and I believe him when he says more headers are due to be going out very soon.

Big Oil. If you get your Dougs headers and havent installed them by the time you get your Tri-Y's....you might want to sell the Doug's headers instead. Just a thought.

On the subject of power again.....I had the old HO Racing D-port Tri-Y's on my 73 turbo 462 trans am. They were a measly 1 and 5/8" tube size....but the car made 1064 hp on the dyno for previous owner Mark at 15 psi. Can we say iron heads flowing only 230 cfm? LOL Ron's new versions are far better.

If anyone is following this and wants a set of O-port Tri-Y's that are finished and in my possession...look back a few pages for pics. I am going to sell them. Then, since I believe in Ron I'm going to order another set from him. That'll help him a bit, and will provide someone a set of headers almost ready to go. These were put together before some of his tweaks last year......so they are for 2nd gen F-body. Look for them shortly in the performance classifieds here.

Go Ron....

P.S. -

If you want to add up costs for headers start with flanges. They will go for $50-$100 depending. Then there is the tubing itself. Something maybe you guys arent aware of....Ron has been building these from 16g not 18g like almost all headers are. MISTAKE HERE AND DON CORRECTED ME BELOW. RON'S HEADERS ARE 14G AND OTHER MAKERS ARE 16G OR THINNER.This increases the cost all over. The pieces for the attachment of primaries to 2ndaries have had to be purchased. They arent cheap. Then there is the cost of gas for the welders, welding expendables, electricity, the tubing bender itself......

Look - if you want to classify headers these are custom made. You cant compare them to Doug's really. I'd really be surprised if Doug's doesnt actually have them manufactured overseas, but not sure on that. Ideally you'd compare them to any other custom header like Lemmon. Is Ron in that league yet? Maybe not. But it is STILL a custom header and the cost for a low unit production is far higher than mass produced prices. I will get the tubes and collector for my next set of headers shorter....already talked to Ron about that. Call Doug's and ask them to do that for you.....lmao

[SD421]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

Something maybe you guys arent aware of....Ron has been building these from 16g not 18g like almost all headers are.

Aron, they are actually 14 gauge.

Don