[The Boss]

And where are they?

[ramair2]

Chris the utter "cricket chirp" to your post tells you everything you need to know!

....Not many at all

I'll give it a wag for ya.

Of the 46 '69 RA IV TA 4speeds made I'd guess that less than 1/2 are still floating around (in any condition). Id wager 20 or so?

Of those ~20, maybe 7-8 still have their original block.

Of those ~7-8 maybe 3-4 still have their original full drivetrain (born-with motor, trans and rear).

Of those ~3-4 I can vouch for at least -1- that still has everything above and all its original body panels.

(Not sure after that...maybe 1 or 2 others floating somewhere...?)

====

As for the nine 69 RA IV TA autos...I'd guess most survived..maybe 7 or 8? (autos are always much better survivors rel to 4speeds)

Of those ~7-8 survivors maybe 5-6 still have their original block. (not 'missing' 3rd gear helps a bunch in this regard)

Of those ~5-6, perhaps 3 or 4 have their complete original drivetrains in tact.

Of those ~3-4, perhaps 2 or 3 have their original body panels...

Thats my 0.03

[The Boss]

I think the number is higher on the 4spds, I know of 4 that have everything above and all original body panels.

Stripes & scoops = higher survivability.

[ramair2]

No doubt, 'badging' always helps.

Nevertheless, no matter how you slice it, we are still talking 'all of the above' numbers on the order of 10 +-

Throw in fully restored (or survivor/timewarp) and you're examples are on certainly on one hand !

[north]

Problem with the RA IV is that the top end offered up RPM that the bottom end couldn't deliver on.

[The Boss]

Actually 6, somebody called me today and reminded me of 2 more - 1 auto, the other a stick.

So far I've got 5 4spds, 1 auto.

Where are they people?

[Big Moe]

Even though they were never numbers matching(well at least the automatic RAIV) lets not forget the (2) Silver proto-types (1) 4 speed and (1) automatic. Even though they were not nmbers matching they had GM special operations touchs that set the tone for the TA's. The press got to beat both of these cars and write reviews of them both and the articles I have on both the 4 speed and the automatic claim COPO camaro numbers. RAIV cars are and will be BLUE CHIP car to any collection. So to comment on the latest RAIV firebird that just sold.....I wish I had that car too!!!!

[muscle_collector]

i agree , any ram air bird is a unique vehicle and very underated to say the least. on the ra4 auto t/a that sold at the auction, i just couldnt believe that it didnt bring more money and even after i learned which one it was, i still think it sold too cheap. just my opinion.

[ramair2]

Gary,

Talk to folks who were there in Indy like I have. Car was a 10 footer. It had/has significant issues. I know/spoke to the new owner. He plans to dump 80k or so to get it to near number 1 condition....

So with that, the math becomes...

130k+10K buyer commission+80K= 220k for 69 RA IV TA automatic with quarters replaced (and maybe/maybe not numbers matching drivertain).

Sounds about right to me for -this particular IV TA-

To get the real top end for the '69 IV TA market you need to compare that 220 above with a no excuses, fully documented, restored and matching 4speed low mile, low owner car. A car like that (yes even today) would go well into the 3's to a serious buyer who wants the best.

In the meantime, don't be surprised if other IV TAs with issues of some sort (e.g. auto, not restored, missing part/all drivetrain, etc) sell in the range that this one did over the next couple of years.

If one thing stands true today, at least in the high end market, is that people WILL pay/fight over cars that are, for whatever reason, perceived as being -the right- cars (e.g. most of Milts collection, a $440K Nickey Camaro(?), $330K for a 440 cuda conv(?), other mint unrestored rare drivetrain muscle, etc). And yep, those same buyers will put their noses up when it comes to other very rare cars that have no (or seemingly minor) warts. For example, I know of more than one 70 Hemi Cuda/Challenger -finished and matching- that went in the 125-135K range. At the same time a low mile unrestored (but certainly not mint cond) 70 Hemi Cuda went for 280K with buyer commission. Go figure...

Crazy/schizophrenic/hard to predict but thats where things are at the top end. Binary market, on/off and not much in between.

[The Boss]

That begs the question of comparative value Joe - if you can buy a fully restored Hemi Cuda/Challenger 4spd with numbers matching top to bottom for less than $130,000 is a similar RA IV TA worth 3 times that?

[ramair2]

You can buy 70 Hemi Cudas/Challengers all day (and night) long. Plus not ALL Hemi Cudas went low. A 71 went for ~600K with commission and that driver 70 unrestored as I said went for 280K.

You missed the point. Its a binary market. The one you snagged and others that went low for whatever reason were not considered as highly as other rare metal out there. (Read my comment about schizophrenic..on/off)

Using your logic doesnt explain how a car that many admit needs a full on resto (80K or so by new owners estiamte) goes for 140K ....

Right there we are at 220K done (140+80).

So yes in this case it looks like a 69 IV TA that doesn't even represent the top of the market near doubles your 125K finished 70 Hemi Challenger.

[weranc55]

Originally Posted by The Boss

That begs the question of comparative value Joe - if you can buy a fully restored Hemi Cuda/Challenger 4spd with numbers matching top to bottom for less than $130,000 is a similar RA IV TA worth 3 times that?

Boss, Just because someone paid 130 for that car and wants to dump 80 into it does not make the car worth 220. It would be nice if things worked that way but they dont. I bought a 70 ra4 ta at the auction last year that had a piss poor resto and if I dumped 100k to restore it again I know it wont be worth 200. Maybe with a good resto the car is worth 130 to 140 today. So those who think theres ra4 tas are worth 300k or more need to look around. I have a few that I may want to sell in the next few years. I would love it more than most if they where worth that much but I put the crack pipe down a few year ago and have come back to reality.

[ramair2]

Chris, since your asking good questions about 'comparative' value lets take this one step further...

"...if you can buy a fully restored Hemi Cuda/Challenger 4spd with numbers matching top to bottom for less than $130,000 is a similar RA IV TA worth 3 times that?"


Lets ask your question this way :

If you can buy a fully restored ('70) Hemi Cuda/Challenger 4spd with numbers matching top to bottom for less than $130,000 is a '71 Hemi Cuda worth ~ 5 x that?

$615K 71 Hemi Cuda (550K+10% buyer add on)
http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...=SC0511-107267


Or...

If you can buy a fully restored ('70) Hemi Cuda/Challenger 4spd with numbers matching top to bottom for less than $130,000 is a '70 440 Cuda convertible worth ~2.5x that ($330K w/buyer add on at Mecum's 2011 auction)?

In both cases, it may seem absurd to most people but in the end clearly the answer was 'yes' it was worth it to someone.

Along those lines lets flip your question around to ask this.

Is paying 50-60% of what a top shelf $615K '71 Hemi 'Cuda went for ($615K) for a top shelf, no excuses 4speed '69 RA IV TA 'worth it' (or dare I say "reasonable"?). To the right buyer, absolutely....

That said, I will say its a very "picky" market at the top end, that at times is hard to sort out. Results mentioned here, and generally at Milt's and Mecum 2011 bear that out. Making sense' of every top end sale in this schizophrenic market is impossible, imo.

[The Boss]

See Joe, here's the benefit of being at the auction - your link was a smoke & mirror sale just like the TA Vert last year done solely to preserve the value of the last HEMI ever built!

[MikeNoun]

That 71 Hemi Cuda has been offered up for sale more times than Pam Anderson at a backstage rock party.

Mecum's history
------------------
2007 - no price
2008 - $525,000 no sale
2009 - $525,000 no sale
2009 - $430,000 no sale
2009 - $370,000 no sale
2010 - $400,000 no sale
2010 - $400,000 no sale
2010 - $375,000 no sale
2010 - $380,000 no sale
2011 - $400,000 no sale
2011 - $550,000 sold

All it takes is the right buyer at the right time. He had to wait for a few years, but he made it back to where the car was valued back in 2008. But I wonder how much the owner lost in consignment fees over all these auctions?

1969 RAIV Trans Am's don't go through TV auctions very often. The last one was (I believe) the column shift car that sold for around $105K back in 2006 at Barrett-Jackson.

[The Boss]

I think Dana owns it - but I could be wrong.

It "Sold" to a phone bidder.

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by The Boss

I think Dana owns it - but I could be wrong.

Now THAT makes sense!

[roundportponchos]

I know of a nice one in Indiana, all orig driveline & panels... Also one here too..

[hobi]

Originally Posted by roundportponchos

I know of a nice one in Indiana, all orig driveline & panels... Also one here too..

Hey Roundport the one you speak of in Indiana does the gentleman restore his own cars. I just bought some Ram Air 1969 parts from a gentlemen in Indiana and once he found out the color combo of my IV Bird Crystal Turquois and Parchmant interior he made me what I feel is a real good offer. I dont see me getting time to restore for atleast a year as other GTOS are in front of it and if I sell would like to go to a good home with hopefully someone who will give it some love. I also heard of a Black Ram IV Bird in Indiana and the same guy has a 1969 T/A just not sure if its a Ram III or a IV but the Black car always gets my attention.

[Ram4TA]

PM me if you're serious about selling this. Maybe this time we can work directly. I ended up with the PQ trans you sold a couple weeks ago.