[Donovan]

Originally Posted by Tony69

Exactly!! It's ALWAYS a big block and therefore no need to say it :P The 301 is just a short deck block.
Just cause youre short, dont mean youre a kid :P

Hahaha, I like that.

Originally Posted by i82much

A 396 tall deck truck BBC isn't enough production for you?

Anyway, you seem well-spoken, so I am sure you realize that terms take their meaning from their usage just as much as they take their usage from their meaning. If you want to call a Pontiac a big block, it's not hurting my feelings any, I just think that language is inconsistent with how the term "big block" is conventionally used in the "car guy" dialect.

I don't really get what journal size or rod length have to do with it. A rod isn't even part of the block, and an engine with bigger journals is hardly "bigger" than an engine with smaller journals.

Thanks! Sure, I get your meaning. But I don't see why you would not call a Pontiac a big block. It's big compared to most other V8s. A lot bigger. And bigger than the 301 which they made a couple million of. Are you also saying big block is strictly a BBC term? not sure.

It just sounds like the camp of people that this gets under their skin simply don't like it because it doesn't 'sound right.' Not really based on anything in the actual facts and figures. I look at it and it's a BIG block, nothing small about it. It weighs a lot more and takes up a lot more space then anything called small block. Dimensionally it is big like other engines called big blocks.

I mean to say everything is bigger in this engine, it's not just deck height. It is not just a tall deck version of a small block engine.

Originally Posted by 242177P

You're ignoring the fact that Pontiac didn't alter it's basic V8 configuration (with the exception of the insanely rare 303) from inception to demise?? The short decks were an anomaly in the program.

A 326 ain't a big block.

You cannot ignore the 301 and 265 as your heart desires or dismiss it as an anomaly just so it fits your argument. I can buy parts off the shelf at Autozone . Even non-car people have heard of a 301. I can find them in junkyards in every city. They were used across the board in all GM passenger cars brands of the era. It's not like it was experimental and never made it to production. Or was only available over the counter.

Other makes aren't hung up on this. The only Buick small block is the 350. The Olds were the 330/350/403! They are short deck engines based on the taller deck design that came first. They don't call their 455's 'tall deck' engines.

326? Smaller displacement doesn't mean small block. That's why I brought up the BBC truck engines 366/396/427.... Displacement doesn't figure at all really.

Are you saying the 301 didn't have enough tenure to have any legitimacy? It needed to last 24 years first?

It's starting to feel like this is the Pontiac-secret-handshake....

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Donovan

Hahaha, I like that.

Thanks! Sure, I get your meaning. But I don't see why you would not call a Pontiac a big block. It's big compared to most other V8s. A lot bigger. And bigger than the 301 which they made a couple million of. Are you also saying big block is strictly a BBC term? not sure.

I think big block and small block are just terms that are used within engine families that have two blocks with completely different dimensions, and tall deck/short deck are used within engine families to refer to individual blocks that are identical with respect to external dimensions besides differences in deck height.

I agree that a Pontiac is closer to a "big block" than it is to a "small block." For my part, I just accept the standard practice of referring to a "Pontiac block" without need to clarify other than to specify if it is a "short deck." But in that case, given that you're talking about a pontiac, isn't calling it a "big block" redundant? And of course even that isn't simple enough, as there are plenty of different castings.

Anyway, it's not that you're "wrong" in a pure semantic sense. At worst, it's a bit redundant and you'll get some odd looks. No big deal.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Donovan

The only Buick small block is the 350. The Olds were the 330/350/403! D

I'd say the aluminum Buick 215 sure was a small block -

Id say the Olds 350 & 455s are the same family (just like the 301 455 Pontiac); you can exchange the cylinder heads. Can't do that on a SBC & BBC

Like all the Ford guys calling the 351M/400 a big block because they had a C6 tranny bolt pattern, yet you can still bolt 302 W heads on it.

[Lightfoot]

Originally Posted by Donovan

You cannot ignore the 301 and 265 as your heart desires or dismiss it as an anomaly just so it fits your argument. I can buy parts off the shelf at Autozone . Even non-car people have heard of a 301. I can find them in junkyards in every city. They were used across the board in all GM passenger cars brands of the era. It's not like it was experimental and never made it to production. Or was only available over the counter.

Are you saying the 301 didn't have enough tenure to have any legitimacy? It needed to last 24 years first?

I believe you mis-read his post. He was refering to the 303: developed for racing only, not the 301.

Originally Posted by Donovan;

Other makes aren't hung up on this. The only Buick small block is the 350. The Olds were the 330/350/403!

You forgot about the 260 Olds, 1975-1981. Millions & millions produced.

Also, Buick had a 340 small block in the mid sixties.

[goatwgn]

Originally Posted by Lightfoot

I believe you mis-read his post. He was refering to the 303: developed for racing only, not the 301.


You forgot about the 260 Olds, 1975-1981. Millions & millions produced.

Also, Buick had a 340 small block in the mid sixties.

Olds "short deck blocks" 260,307,330,350,403. Buick SB 215,300,340,350. Olds "tall deck blocks 400,425,455. Buick BB 400,430,455. And of course Buick had the nailheads,(264,322,364,401,425) and Olds had the "first generation design" engines as well ('49-'64 303,324,371,394). It is understandable that non-car people would assume a "Large Displacement" engine relative to another would be a "Big Block". I think what we see funny here is someone "acting" like they are an expert on something, then making a stupid sounding statement around people who actually know better.

[Donovan]

Originally Posted by i82much

I think big block and small block are just terms that are used within engine families that have two blocks with completely different dimensions, and tall deck/short deck are used within engine families to refer to individual blocks that are identical with respect to external dimensions besides differences in deck height.

I agree that a Pontiac is closer to a "big block" than it is to a "small block." For my part, I just accept the standard practice of referring to a "Pontiac block" without need to clarify other than to specify if it is a "short deck." But in that case, given that you're talking about a pontiac, isn't calling it a "big block" redundant? And of course even that isn't simple enough, as there are plenty of different castings.

Anyway, it's not that you're "wrong" in a pure semantic sense. At worst, it's a bit redundant and you'll get some odd looks. No big deal.

Yeah, agreed. And more to the point it's a functional problem in Pontiac conversation. How many Pontiac guys are hotrodding a 301/303/265? How many are working with the larger block? So yeah it's redundant to define it as a big block in our circles.

If a non-Pontiac person says 'Hey! Nice big block 389 Pontiac with a 6 pack!' Well, I think it's a compliment. A person should look past the ignorant parts. I'm saying let's stop harping on the big block comment in general we have no real grounds for it.

Originally Posted by Evil Stu

Here in Canada they are often referred to as the "blue block" 350/400/455, or even the American block" 350/400/455.

At least I know what engine they're talking about, even if they insist my 70 should have a "six pack".

I didn't know that, cool! American block! I assume compared to what we call 'corporate' blocks?

Originally Posted by 455Grandville

I'd say the aluminum Buick 215 sure was a small block -

Id say the Olds 350 & 455s are the same family (just like the 301 455 Pontiac); you can exchange the cylinder heads. Can't do that on a SBC & BBC

Like all the Ford guys calling the 351M/400 a big block because they had a C6 tranny bolt pattern, yet you can still bolt 302 W heads on it.

Yep, but you splitting hairs on me here. Interesting factoids for sure! But it doesn't really apply here. I bet that 351M BBF thing gets some Ford guys going though!

The Olds thing is true and just happened that way probably to save engineering cash. The Buicks are similar in design but not a swap.

Originally Posted by Lightfoot

I believe you mis-read his post. He was refering to the 303: developed for racing only, not the 301.


You forgot about the 260 Olds, 1975-1981. Millions & millions produced.

Also, Buick had a 340 small block in the mid sixties.

Actually, the conversations started on 301s and the 303 from what I understand was what they were based off of. But anyway, the 303 was not a good argument so I stuck to the 301 aspect. They made 5 of them or something? Like you are saying

Yes, so you agree with me, the 260 is included in there too.

340? Now we are comparing engines from closely related families across different eras? Fine. Does this example prove or disprove something about BBP?

Originally Posted by goatwgn

Olds "short deck blocks" 260,307,330,350,403. Buick SB 215,300,340,350. Olds "tall deck blocks 400,425,455. Buick BB 400,430,455. And of course Buick had the nailheads,(264,322,364,401,425) and Olds had the "first generation design" engines as well ('49-'64 303,324,371,394). It is understandable that non-car people would assume a "Large Displacement" engine relative to another would be a "Big Block". I think what we see funny here is someone "acting" like they are an expert on something, then making a stupid sounding statement around people who actually know better.

Yes I agree. Saying 'big block Pontiac' does mark a person real quick.

All said I would not say big block Pontiac to describe my 350 er 354! I just don't see what the big deal is for others to say it.

Did Pontiac have a 301 V8? yes. Did they also have a V8 that was bigger in size during the same era? yes. Is this engine also large compared to other makes? yes. Stuff like that.

[Evil Stu]

Originally Posted by Donovan

I didn't know that, cool! American block! I assume compared to what we call 'corporate' blocks?

Like this;

Hey, can I put that TA motor in my Chev pickup? That 305 sucks.

Sure, but the starter is on the other side of the American block 400 so you'll need to make some changes.

http://newbrunswick.kijiji.ca/c-cars...AdIdZ288531590

BTW: The ELDERBROCK reference should make this list on it's own! That's as bad as driving a Camero.

Until 1970, as I'm sure you know, many Pontiacs here came with the Chevy engines (both sbc and bbc). If you wanted a GP, or a GTO, before 1970, you could get one, the dealer would bring it in. It would be described as having the "American block". Even after 1970 when the Pontiac lines became generally much more similar on both sides of the border the name stuck.

It's only used for Pontiac's too, Buick and Olds didn't have the Canada only Chevy based models like Pontiac did (at least not as late as the 60's), so the distinction for the Olds and Buick motors was never required.

Stu