[PONTIAC DUDE]

(1) So if you are gonna design a new engine not based on any of the Pontiac parameters already set for over a half century.

(2) Pontiac is No longer an entity of GM and no longer in production.

(3) Why would it even be in the Pontiac family?

(4) How could it even be called a Pontiac.
The timing cover and valley pan set up?

(5) Most would delete the cover in this monetary build up anyway.

(6) Not to say someone won't do it but the cost per return seems "Not practical".

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

(1) So if you are gonna design a new engine not based on any of the Pontiac parameters already set for over a half century.

(2) Pontiac is No longer an entity of GM and no longer in production.

(3) Why would it even be in the Pontiac family?

(4) How could it even be called a Pontiac.
The timing cover and valley pan set up?

(5) Most would delete the cover in this monetary build up anyway.

(6) Not to say someone won't do it but the cost per return seems "Not practical".

You are chitting me right? (You guys are calling it a Pontiac Engine based on a Bore Spacing number, nothing else)

1) Pontiac never had "Canted Valves" in production but a CV-1 Head is allowed.

2) Pontiac never offered a 4.5" stroke from the factory and yet 4.5" and a 4.25" cranks are "allowed" as being "factory".

3) Pontiac Engines did not have "Shaft Rockers" on their V-8 Engines but shaft rocker systems are allowed.

4) Pontiac did not have 6.8" long, 2.20" bearing diameter Rods. They are allowed.

5) Pontiac did have a belt drive camshaft system for the 6 cylinder engine so I guess we could allow the BOP belt drive stuff.

6) Pontiac never had a 4.375" Bore Block but that is allowed.

So the only thing that makes the "Pontiac Engine" a "Pontiac Engine" is a engine with a 4.62" Bore Spacing.

So I can go to my Ford SOHC Engine buddies and buy a raw block designed for a 4.630" bore spacing vs a 4.620" bore spacing, have it machined to a 4.62" bore spacing and take it to all of the Pontiac Events and call it a true "Pontiac" engine (as you guys are saying THAT is what makes a True "Pontiac" engine. A engine with a 4.62" bore spacing.

You guys are so out in left field with your "has to be a 4.62" bore spacing" bs it is actually humorous.

It has nothing to do with engineering, It has to do with a single number in a book that you guys are now calling the "Holy Bore Spacing Number". You guys should join the "Flat Earth Society"

Tom Vaught

ps George, just to bring you up to speed as you have been bashing me a few times in MY topic. IT IS MY TOPIC. I STARTED IT, I CAN ADD INFO OR MOVE THE TOPIC AROUND AS I SEE FIT AS THE TOPIC STARTER.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

You are chitting me right? (You guys are calling it a Pontiac Engine based on a Bore Spacing number, nothing else)

1) Pontiac never had "Canted Valves" in production but a CV-1 Head is allowed.

2) Pontiac never offered a 4.5" stroke from the factory and yet 4.5" and a 4.25" cranks are "allowed" as being "factory".

3) Pontiac Engines did not have "Shaft Rockers" on their V-8 Engines but shaft rocker systems are allowed.

4) Pontiac did not have 6.8" long, 2.20" bearing diameter Rods. They are allowed.

5) Pontiac did have a belt drive camshaft system for the 6 cylinder engine so I guess we could allow the BOP belt drive stuff.

6) Pontiac never had a 4.375" Bore Block but that is allowed.

So the only thing that makes the "Pontiac Engine" a "Pontiac Engine" is a engine with a 4.62" Bore Spacing. THIS IS THE POINT along with bolt on items like pan, timing covers, heads. !!!!!

So I can go to my Ford SOHC Engine buddies and buy a raw block designed for a 4.630" bore spacing vs a 4.620" bore spacing, have it machined to a 4.62" bore spacing and take it to all of the Pontiac Events and call it a true "Pontiac" engine (as you guys are saying THAT is what makes a True "Pontiac" engine. A engine with a 4.62" bore spacing.

You guys are so out in left field with your "has to be a 4.62" bore spacing" bs it is actually humorous.

It has nothing to do with engineering, It has to do with a single number in a book that you guys are now calling the "Holy Bore Spacing Number". You guys should join the "Flat Earth Society"

Tom Vaught

ps George, just to bring you up to speed as you have been bashing me a few times in MY topic. IT IS MY TOPIC. I STARTED IT, I CAN ADD INFO OR MOVE THE TOPIC AROUND AS I SEE FIT AS THE TOPIC STARTER.

Tom. We have the M/T Hemi heads that BOLTS to a Pontiac block. We have the RA V stuff with different valve configuration that BOLTS to a Pontiac block. We have the canted valve CV-1 head that BOLTS to a Pontiac block.
If ya change the parameters away from the std Pontiac block design from the original concept it is no longer a Pontiac because they are no longer in existence as a Make of Automobile.

Increasing the bore spacing and using nothing else related to a Pontiac is already available in the aftermarket. Been done.

Where would the Pontiac aspect come into play?

So according to your ideals, if I run a Small Block Chevy with the Factory designed Pontiac aluminum heads Casting #987, it is a Pontiac and can be run at Pontiac events?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

So according to your ideals, if I run a Small Block Chevy with the Factory designed Pontiac aluminum heads Casting #987, it is a Pontiac and can be run at Pontiac events?

Eric made an excellent post. The question remains 'What constitutes a Pontiac Engine?'

"1) designed and built by Pontiac Factory"

a) Pontiac Trans-Ams were offered with the SB Chevy Engine and sold as a Pontiac Vehicle and what they considered to be a Pontiac Engineered Engine. Same Deal with the Buick Turbo Engine design in the TA. Pontiac Engineers changed the Buick castings to Pontiac castings to fit into the TA.

b) Pontiac Engineering contracted with companies like Brodex to offer the Aluminum SB Chevy Performance Heads with a Pontiac LOGO on them and a Pontiac Part Number.

C) Pontiac Big Chief Heads had a Pontiac Part Number and LOGO.

All of the Parts were designed by PONTIAC Engineers employed by General Motors.

So you see that for every reason why the other parts ARE NOT a Pontiac, there are examples where they considered to be a Pontiac Engine.

Again, this is a excellent description of assumed parts and assumed relationships:

2) retains a predominant number of critical factory dimensions and architecture; so that most major factory parts could be bolted on. Bore spacing is the biggie, head bolt pattern (at least the factory 10 in their normal places), timing cover bolt pattern, cam lobe spacing, etc. Note that I didn't give a black & white list....the use of the word predominant is intentionally gray.

Personally I think that when we want to call it a Pontiac Engine we conveniently forget some differences. When we want to disqualify the engine we think of things that will disqualify the engine. Purely a subjective deal.

Slowbird summed it up well:

"This is all fun to talk about but really if someone did spend the money to develop a block with everything to go along with it and people agreed that it is a Pontiac. Just how many people would actually fork over the $$$ to buy one? Maybe 5 people in the whole Pontiac community? There are parts and pieces out there now that have proven to make real good power with what we currently have and not many people have spend the $$$ to buy those. Just my opinion "

It seems that most people will not get into a engineering discussion because the engineering means nothing to them. The show guys bought the cars for that deal and are happy. The street guys are happy as they CAN make more power vs the stock stuff. Most every part for the engine is re-poped today. 5 Guys will be pushing the limit of the current design. Everyone seems happy to stay right where they are in the program.
PMD is dead so there is and never will be any Pontiac Excitement from PMD or Government Motors.

Yep, George, I saw a very nice TA/Camaro at the Texas Mile. Nice "what-if" car for a guy who wants to be different. Expensive but different. Maybe that is the actual DNA of a Pontiac guy: Willing to spend more money to be "Different".

Tom Vaught

[Torment]

Maybe that is the actual DNA of a Pontiac guy: Willing to spend more money to be "Different".

Tom Vaught


Absolutely! And for someone like me that grew up racing on the streets far more than on a track - back before we knew it was a bad thing to do of course - beating the belly button brands was always that much sweeter

[Chris Petersen]

Originally Posted by Torment

Maybe that is the actual DNA of a Pontiac guy: Willing to spend more money to be "Different".

Tom Vaught


Absolutely! And for someone like me that grew up racing on the streets far more than on a track - back before we knew it was a bad thing to do of course - beating the belly button brands was always that much sweeter

X 1000!!

Ask anyone, I HAVE to be different, and for god's sake, dont tell me it cant be done...lol....I will dye trying to make it so.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

I remember back in the early 90's when the E-head came out to replace the #614's & 722's. An awful lot of Pontiac people were dead set against the heads and a lot of slamming when on.
Then the used ported factory heads flowing less were going for $2500 and the E-heads complete were $1400.00
That's what brought me BACK to Pontiac after 20 years.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. The Pontiac forum boards.

The BBC 632 is a great cheap HP combo and all ya have to do is Put on a set of Pontiac logo valve covers.