[slowbird]

This is all fun to talk about but really if someone did spend the money to develop a block with everything to go along with it and people agreed that it is a Pontiac. Just how many people would actually fork over the $$$ to buy one? Maybe 5 people in the whole Pontiac community? There are parts and pieces out there now that have proven to make real good power with what we currently have and not many people have spend the $$$ to buy those. Just my opinion

[Elarson]

I can see both sides of the conversation....being both a purist and an engineer.
In my humble opinion, to call it a Pontiac, it has to fit one of the following:

1) designed and built by Pontiac factory

******or*******
2) retains a predominant number of critical factory dimensions and architecture; so that most major factory parts could be bolted on. Bore spacing is the biggie, head bolt pattern (at least the factory 10 in their normal places), timing cover bolt pattern, cam lobe spacing, etc. Note that I didn't give a black & white list....the use of the word predominant is intentionally gray.

As an engineer, I see the limitations of the factory architecture and if a person chooses to deviate substantially from those, it makes good engineering sense, but why call it a Pontiac?

JMHO,
Eric

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Elarson

I can see both sides of the conversation....being both a purist and an engineer.
In my humble opinion, to call it a Pontiac, it has to fit one of the following:

1) designed and built by Pontiac factory

******or*******
2) retains a predominant number of critical factory dimensions and architecture; so that most major factory parts could be bolted on. Bore spacing is the biggie, head bolt pattern (at least the factory 10 in their normal places), timing cover bolt pattern, cam lobe spacing, etc. Note that I didn't give a black & white list....the use of the word predominant is intentionally gray.

As an engineer, I see the limitations of the factory architecture and if a person chooses to deviate substantially from those, it makes good engineering sense, but why call it a Pontiac?

JMHO,
Eric

X 2

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by slowbird

There are parts and pieces out there now that have proven to make real good power with what we currently have and not many people have spend the $$$ to buy those. Just my opinion

Exactly!

[mike leech]

This type of thread is why i call engineers....imagineers. This is a pointless topic.

[Elarson]

I accept the new term proudly. Without imagineers, the only drag racing we would have would be on foot, with the starter waving a stick.

Eric

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Elarson

I accept the new term proudly. Without imagineers, the only drag racing we would have would be on foot, with the starter waving a stick.

Eric

I respectfully disagree. Hot rodders are to credit with modifying their cars. Don't get me wrong I appreciate a good engineer. Problem is if a moron goes to school long enough he will end up one. That and there are many that received no formal education that are more qualified.
That said I have some very good friends that I would call great engineers with little more than a H.S. education. No disrespect intended to anyone.

[Elarson]

Well, the talent in the engineering field fits the traditional bell curve, like any other profession. A few idiots, a few brilliant ones and a lot of ones with varying amounts of functionality in the middle. And any drag racer worth his salt has to give due credit to the legions of backyard inventors.

But you've made my point......"Hot rodders are to credit with modifying their cars".....where did those cars come from?

No disrespect taken....
Eric

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

A little History first::

Tom, this is a very eloquent case, however you left out a bit of Pontiac history that is pertinent to this discussion:

1.) Ford Engineers were committed to the Tunnel Port design for at least 10 years of research until Bernie Knudsen took over and trashed the whole program in favor or BBC design. So, Ford became a copycat of Chevrolet.(He even brought many of his engineers from Chevrolet making the ultimate "cronieism" move of the day.)

2.) Pontiac recognized the value in the Tunnel Port design and hired the engineering people from Ford.

3.) Pontiac did a 389 FI engine for all the 57 Bonneville Convertibles which also included reverse cooling.

4.) There were some Super Charged Bonnevilles in the late 1950s with reverse cooling for all Pontiac V-8s solving many issues for head gasket issues.

5.) The RAV via the Ford group makes head gasket width a superfluous discussion. We all know it isnt really a problem with gasket width but rather heat from the siamesed exhaust ports combined with reverse cooling.

6.) Pontiac made what I believe to be one of the fastest production cars of all time the 1980 TransAm Turbo which with all stock parameters in NHRA stock class at nearly 4000lbs capable of 11 second quarter mile times with junk yard componets(via Neil Smedley). A super stock version of this engine is needed to compete against the Ford that has an 800 CFM Qjet rated 225HP. I think this engine in Super Stock trim is capable of 600HP which makes a ratio of 2.67 to one. (The 428 that is currently the best combo has a power ratio of 2.24 to one). Gotta build one of these!

7.) A stock block version of this engine with just moderate upgrades I believe capable of 750HP of which we are currently doing a crate engine with RAV heads with the block that was built from short deck RAV tooling for the original 301.

8.) Since RAVs are not limited to the heat issue of traditional siamese Pontiac heads, we can do bores to 4.42 with stock Pontiac bore spacing. If we offset bore the stock blocks we can go to 4.600 or beyond. This puts us over 600 cubic inch engines normally aspirated with stock Pontiac bore spacing and an inexpensive cast stroker crank increasing our flow and straightening our ports reducing valve shrouding.

9.) Turboing arguments are highly recommended been there done that, but it is expensive! No substitute for power. Casey getting 820HP and 805TQ out of his crusty old Ford V-6 proves that!

My recommendations:

1.) Solve all head gasket issues with RAV valve order as it isnt width that is the problem it is really the heat!

2.) We are switching to reverse cooling for all Pontiac ASAP to further reduce heat to the heat and add timing for more ultimate power.(Original Pontiac design)

3.) Normally aspirated street engines can be produced with RAV componets only for over 600 cubic inches with traditional parts and componets at a reasonable price.

4.) 700 cubic inch engines normally aspirated can be produced with more expensive componets on stock Pontiac style castings using RAV heads only.

5.) Turbo engines due to the high heat with exhaust temperatures will benefit without contending with siamesed exhaust problems(which by the way many other manufacturers have the same problem)

6.) Eds turbo engine will make 2200HP with street componets it is a fact. A race engine could be way more. After doing Eds engine I dont know if everyone has the cash to do these complicated engines. Way more involved than a normally aspirated one.

7.) Build my 4.9L Turbo engine for 750HP and I think over 20mpg stock block or the HP race version of over 1400HP, 400 short deck turbo, or Twin Turbo 535. We have two cost stages for each.

Final Analysis: No siamese burn out! (My 455SD 9 to one compression engine burnt the he&& out of the center head gasket and it was a 0.040 Cometic(about 90 passes)!