[dataway]

I got my first PHS about 20 years ago ....still have it, and plan to get another, not sure why, maybe just in case something new has shown up

Anyway, price is fine to me, well worth it. I can't complain about condition, it is what it is, who knew anyone would care about this stuff 40 years later. I get a kick out of getting a printout of the original film ....the quality of which is fixed, and cannot be improved on at this point.


I find myself curious about a couple of things though. First, how did this information become the property of one person, how was it obtained. If it's still owned by GM, is it leased? Borrowed? etc.

Next would be ....what can be done to preserve this information? The film is not going to last forever, the machine that reads it will not last forever. I mean this is not just about preserving information because it's someone's business.... it's also about preserving information that is important to a lot of people, and at some point before it is lost should enter the public domain.

JohnnyB

[getmygoat]

I would suspect there are organizations with experience converting microfiche to digital format, think of all the library resources that were in microfiche - most have now been digitized.

For example, a quick google found this company:
http://www.microfacs.com/digital/mic...FQ4zhwodWCgJzA

Seems like that's the way to go... Most conversions could likely OCR and preserve the digital image - then you can search the OCR'ed version but no data is lost with the images still remaining.

Just call it phs.google.com

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by dataway

I find myself curious about a couple of things though. First, how did this information become the property of one person, how was it obtained. If it's still owned by GM, is it leased? Borrowed? etc.

JohnnyB

From a previous post: I wrote up a little "Pre-history" of PHS which might answer (or allude to the answer to) your question. This was first captured in an email to author/illustrator Eric White (gtoric on this site).

I haven't reviewed this Jim Mattison or PHS; this is just my understanding based on talking to Fred Simmonds while we were driving together.

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Eric -

Have you or anyone ever written an article about the "pre-history" of PHS?

During our trip I asked Fred about the technique he used to find the '62 and '63 Super Duty cars; before answering my question he framed the discussion by giving me the background of how he came to find the records and learn to use them, and how Mattison came to found Pontiac Historic Services.

I was driving and couldn't write anything down but this is how I remember what he said:

Back in the middle 1980's he was "into" HO model trains but as he got older he was frustrated because he couldn't see what he was doing (apparently he has always had poor eyesight). He ended up selling all of his train stuff but found himself without a hobby. His wife suggested that he should get a car so after a brief search he found the '67 Lemans that he still has.

His initial introduction to the Pontiac records was through trying to find out information about his own car. He mentioned to one of the secretaries that he would like to know how his car was built and she said "oh, I can find that out". Sure enough, within a couple days she produced the invoice and option content (sort of a prehistoric "PHS" packet!). He asked her how she did that and she replied that the information still existed on property and that it was guarded by a financial person.

Fred later found out this financial guy was going to retire, so he began to visit with him and learn where the information was located and how it was stored. During this time (still mid 80's?) there was a lot of employee turmoil in the form of retirements and outright separations so there was a lot of stuff getting thrown out. Fred told all his friends he was interested in "right of first refusal" so anything they had that might be interesting was passed by him before being pitched. He said he would literally make a trip home every night with all kinds of photos, literature, memorabilia, hardware, trophies, paint samples, etc.

By this time they were receiving maybe a request or two a day from Pontiac enthusiasts (usually fellow employees) that had heard about this service. Between Fred or his friend they were able to fulfill these requests. Additionally, Fred would come in early and poke around, then maybe return at lunch time and finally spend some time in the records before heading home for the evening, just nosing around.

Eventually the requests got to be too much for one person to handle on a part time basis, maybe 20 or so a day. He and Jim Mattison had been friends before that and Jim had become quite familiar with the records and how they were organized (more on that in a minute). It was at that point that Jim approached Pontiac Motor Division and suggested that he could form a company (Automotive Services) and maintain the records and fulfill these requests for information. At that point the information would still belong to Pontiac (I'm guessing) but he would provide the service as a contractor (I'm sure). All of this was taking place while the records were down in the vault, in the basement of the Administration building.

Eventually, when the Administration building was "closed" (maybe not the right wording, but when the functions were rearranged or offices reallocated) that's when Jim and the records were relocated to Shows & Shoots (which is where I found him). I think you are familiar with the story about Pontiac taking the records back, and in their infinite wisdom they actually threw them out. Jim literally retrieved them from the dumpster which (I suspect) forms the foundation of the dispute over ownership which still exists today or was only recently resolved.

So - about the Super Dutys: The very first request had to do with one of the '62 Super Duty Grand Prix (Allan Gartzman's '62 Grand Prix; one of 16). Fred got a request to check into that car and, having been provided the VIN, he was able to confirm that it was in fact a Super Duty car. There was some variation in how the records were stored based on model year; the '62s were one way (maybe by VIN by Plant) and the '63s were different (like in VIN order by plant but grouped by body style). At any rate what he did was search for that car and then extend his search a little bit in both directions, looking for the engine option code. Eventually, he had a list of VINs going and so he expanded his search to include Catalinas and Bonnevilles (ie, non Grand Prix models) until he had a comprehensive list of 1962 cars. He looked through every 1962 invoice record; He said he continued on into '63 but did not actually look at them all - he went through 160,000 or so invoices but when he got out into the May or June timeframe it had been so long since he had seen any car that even remotely resembled a performance car that he gave up. Bottom line is that Fred literally went through hundreds of thousands of invoices, one by one (on the microfiche) in order to find those cars.

I thought it was fascinating and that others might also be interested. It might be a good idea to get this down on paper (accurately) before it's too late.

[aukc]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Eventually, when the Administration building was "closed" (maybe not the right wording, but when the functions were rearranged or offices reallocated) that's when Jim and the records were relocated to Shows & Shoots (which is where I found him). I think you are familiar with the story about Pontiac taking the records back, and in their infinite wisdom they actually threw them out. Jim literally retrieved them from the dumpster which (I suspect) forms the foundation of the dispute over ownership which still exists today or was only recently resolved.

Keith, I'll try to follow your example and write more stuff down when I first hear it, instead of assuming I'll remember it forever, a couple years ago I had a brief phone chat with Reg Harris (PMD Public Relations in early 1990's then went on to SLP) and Reg also mentioned Jim going thru the dumpsters when the admin building was closed, I think Reg said that Jim also retrieved PMD's old Motor Trend COTY awards and other similar stuff from those dumpsters. Sad that Pontiac could have so little respect for it's heritage, but glad Jim was there to save it.

[aukc]

want to mention one of the other related services offered by PHS, which is the reproduction window sticker. Personnally, I have not used the info package service but I do have a PHS reproduction window sticker for my car, and it was well worth it.



When I display my car at shows, I attach the window sticker to the inside of the side window, just like it would have been when for sale new on the dealership lot, using Tack-It repositionable glue. It's a great conversation starter, people will have a look at the window sticker and then start asking questions, sometimes about the millage, options, base price or prices of options, etc.

And in my case, PHS does not officially even support my car - http://www.phs-online.com/window%20sticker%20order.htm

When I first approached PHS about doing a repo window sticker Jim was not able to, but when PHS started offering repo window stickers for the 1990's firebirds, since it uses the same window sticker "stock" I was able to talk him into doing it. I had to find an original example of a window sticker for a similar car (ie. same year and options) and provide my RPO build data (I have the original build sheet and also for my car this info is available online at GM dealer) and working with this PHS was able to reproduce the window sticker for my car. I consider it to be a unique and original collectible work of art, and so I asked Jim to sign it.

[Unclesamscandy]

I really loved this thread, and read each word. I have been into Pontiac since I was 17 n 1983. I remember wanting to make my white 67 stock as when I had bought it, it had the usual mags, shag carpet and red paint job, jacked up in the back. 99% of the people looked at me like I had a screw loose. And the 99% is what PHS is really up against, for WE here on this forum(as Pontiac lovers) are who CARE and LOVE our cars and ALL of the Pontiacs are the 1%.

We must realize that the vast majority of classic car owners AND classic Pontiacs owners DON'T want to pay 65 bucks, or even the $50. Because we spend our car time with fellow 1% enthusiasts here or in our local clubs etc, we can't comprehend the broke-dick, cheap-as$, tightwad, short-sighted nature of the average guy that has a 'Goat' in his driveway, or a 70s TA in his garage and who DOES NOT see the reason to spend his hard-earned on an envelope of papers about which he thinks he knows all anyway. Look how many times you see people post things (even on this forum) asking if or even telling people that they have a 65 GTO (that is a Lemans) or a 69 GTO that is a Judge(which is not) because of something on a trim tag or an exhaust hanger under the car, etc. Some of these people INSIST that their car is tri-power because it had 3-2s on it since they first saw it in the 70's. If you mention PHS they look at you like you are a Martian. THEY won't pay for a more expensive packet or breakdown.

So what I am saying is that if Jim DID all this work and his price suddenly had to be $200 a package, his customers audience would shrink dramatically. It would be just us same old few thousand customers who gave a crap enough to buy the package! BUT there will be lots of folks who won't buy at all.

Because in this hobby- the Pontiac people are NOT the most numerous or the most wealthy. You would see the Vette, Ford, & Mopar people willing to spend that kind of coin. Let's be real about our little corner of the hobby. We are NOT the Mustang industry, where the enthusiasts (AND cars produced) rank in the millions and are of the higher income strata. We are just NOT THAT BIG as a percentage of the hobby.

PHS has to stay viable. I am sure Jim had many a sleepless nights determining whether he would raise that price. I know in my business, I would feel the same. I have actually HAD to raise prices in my bus. recently and was very anxious about it.

In summary I'm glad he is doing what he does and if he DOES come up with more finely detailed info that costs more I personally WILL support it. But we on this forum are not the typical car owners and we need to bear that in mind. Especially before telling the man how to run his business, no offense. I think 95% of what has been posted is constructive insight and ideas, but I would also not be surprised that he hasn't either thought about it, or researched ways to implement some of them. a huge capital outlay in this environment may make it impractical and over-expansion may spell the end for a small firm like that with no end in sight to the economic malaise we are experiencing.