[68bird400HO]

Originally Posted by Diego

Hey, no worries at all - it's all in good fun.

But I disagree that the Judge was only an appearance package. Would you say the same thing about a Buick GSX (a GS with stripes and spoiler)? Cyclone Spoiler (a Cyclone with stripes and spoiler)? All three of these cars have different identities compared to their brethren, and the market agrees if you look at their prices.

I would not compare the Judge package to the GSX package. This big reason is that I do agree with others here that the Judge was more of an appearance package. Yes, you got the RAIII motor, but, that was it regarding anything performance related. The GSX was a complete performance package that came with gauges, hood tach, posi, heavy duty suspension, 15x7 rallys with G60x15s and a choice of 4-speed or TH400 as well as the special appearance package. The Judge was not a complete performance package. These cars came standard with no posi, no gauges, 3-speed manual, no suspension upgrade, etc. They were sort of trapped between their original intent of being a stripper low cost performer to compete with the Roadrunners, and being a specialty car. The GSX was complete as were cars like the Hurst/Olds, TAs, W30s, Challeger TAs, AAR Cudas, Boss Mustangs, Cougar Eliminators, and I am sure others. That is the difference. Without the performance options being standard, it was mostly stripes and a spoiler. The hood tach wasn't even standard. Now, don't get me wrong, I still love the Judges and would love to own one. I am just trying to be realistic about what they were.

Yes, all three cars you list above have different identities to their brethren, but, those identities are based on their visual impact, ie, their appearance package, which the Judge does have. The difference lies in the content of the rest of their special packages.

[Diego]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

I would not compare the Judge package to the GSX package. This big reason is that I do agree with others here that the Judge was more of an appearance package. Yes, you got the RAIII motor, but, that was it regarding anything performance related. The GSX was a complete performance package that came with gauges, hood tach, posi, heavy duty suspension, 15x7 rallys with G60x15s and a choice of 4-speed or TH400 as well as the special appearance package.

If there was not Judge, there likely wouldn't be a GSX. I think the actual standard content is irrelevant - I think both cars rely on image more than anything else.

The GSX was complete as were cars like the Hurst/Olds, TAs, W30s, Challeger TAs, AAR Cudas, Boss Mustangs, Cougar Eliminators, and I am sure others.

I am unsure how Boss 302s, and Cougar Eliminators could be considered complete since they all didn't come with limited slip standard. Even Hemis had Sure-grip optional.

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by Diego

If there was not Judge, there likely wouldn't be a GSX. I think the actual standard content is irrelevant - I think both cars rely on image more than anything else.





I am unsure how Boss 302s, and Cougar Eliminators could be considered complete since they all didn't come with limited slip standard. Even Hemis had Sure-grip optional.

judges didnt come standard with posi, limited slip either

[68bird400HO]

[QUOTE=Diego;4804267]If there was not Judge, there likely wouldn't be a GSX. I think the actual standard content is irrelevant - I think both cars rely on image more than anything else.[Quote]

And I can agree that a Judge is definitely an iconic car. I am just being objective about the fact that it is more or less an appearance package option for a GTO. I think your frustration with the Olds boys had to do with each side arguing two different points. The debate over what was the Judge package, objectively, and was it iconic are two completely different discussions. I can also agree that it may have been the car that ignited the specialty car package craze for those few years unless you want to give any credit to the 68 Hurst Olds.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

I would not compare the Judge package to the GSX package. This big reason is that I do agree with others here that the Judge was more of an appearance package. ...

...The GSX was complete as were cars like the Hurst/Olds, TAs, W30s, Challeger TAs, AAR Cudas, Boss Mustangs, Cougar Eliminators, and I am sure others. That is the difference. Without the performance options being standard, it was mostly stripes and a spoiler. The hood tach wasn't even standard..

Just quoting 68bird400HO for general purpose.
I respect everyones opinions and views on that type subject.

However to remind folks - the first 2000 initial Pre-Built Judges in 69 ALL had righteous performance appearance handling steering braking options... and hood tachs with gauges - take it or leave it was the deal until after mid February.
Similar to 2nd Gen TA's marketing.

And at that time of release - it was unknown if they would even sell them all.
Much less produce more.

The only thing missing on those were IV engines.
Which weren't released yet anyway.
Otherwise they were full ticket performance package.

I don't think nearly as many would have been sold if that content and color had remained a requisite. Pontiac probably had that same notion.

Its release and initial offering was pretty full tilt.
Those cars set the stage.
Gets too involved to split all the hairs after that.
Turning the Judge into an "adjustable content" helped more sell.

Like the one that Steve posted.
That buyer might not have been able or willing to make it happen for almost $4300 on a Pattern Car.
But for $3600 he was driving a new Carousel Red Judge with WS Ram Air.
For $3250 he would have gotten something more similar to this Limelight GTO with a WT and dual snorkel breather.
He got more performance and more appearance.





More 1st and early 2nd Gen TA's would have likely been sold if their content had more adjustability as well.

Its all in how each person chooses to view it.
i respect that.
But personally would categorize them right with most all the others mentioned.
with Hurst/Olds being a possible exception.

You could option a GTO to have everything of a Judge except the appearance features.
You could option a Formula to have everything of a TA except appearance.
But i wouldn't ask a TA to step down because of that.

They just evolved in different ways.
The Judge downscaled a little, the TA upscaled a little.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

1 of the Original First 2000 Judges

(excluding tranny choice and/or AC)
99.x % either got the exact equipment as this -
or they got no judge at all - in the onset