[The Champ]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Champ, they do a 3-wide start at Indy because it's TRADITION, not because the drivers like it. The Indy 500 is a spectacle, the biggest single automotive event in the world, and with it goes pageantry.

Indy is what Indy is. Once again, if they can start the race 3 wide, they can restart the race 3 wide.

And my stats aren't off. There's a death every 3.8 years at Indy, and that's JUST THE INDY 500, whereas your selective stats include over 700 races between all series that run Daytona since 1959, including the "big boys" of Grand National/Winston/Nextel/Sprint, and the lesser series of Busch/Nationwide, plus the the hundreds of shootout races, qualifiers, and ARCA races held at Daytona. They're all considered "NASCAR".

You also include practice and qualifying session deaths in your stats, which I didn't do. That sways the dangers of the Indy 500 even further towards my point.

Did you even read my last post on the topic? Obviously not...

Your 3.8 years stat is extremely selective - it only counts the years from the first fatality to the last fatality. It ignores the years before the first fatality and the 41 years since the last one.

In the last 41 years there has not been a single fatality during the Indy 500. That's a very good thing. But by your claimed statistic of one death every 3.8 years - there should have been another 10.8 fatalities. But there hasn't even been a single ONE.

How do you justify your continued claim of 3.8? You can't. To even post that was an attempt to hide from the truth.

In the modern day era (1970 - present - selective - but fair to both sides based on safety improvements made to both sports) there has not been a fatality during the Indy 500 (see previous post about Swede Savage), but there has been a fatality during the Daytona 500.

There have been another 25 deaths at the Indy 500 during practice, testing, and qualifying. So that's 39 deaths at the Indy 500, plus another 12 died when drivers used to ride with mechanics on board (pre-war).

Grand total of 51 deaths at Indy since 1913, or one death every 2 years.

Most of those deaths occurred before Daytona was even built. When you questioned my numbers I boiled things down to just the actual race, but now you want to add practice in. Okay, fine... But let's also be fair any at least use a semblance of current day safety...

Modern day era:

Indy 500 Race

1973 - Swede Savage (died in hospital July 2, death may have been from contaminated blood transfusion rather than directly from the crash)

Indy 500 Practice/Qualifying

1972 - Jim Malloy
1973 -Art Pollard
1982 - Gordon Smiley
1992 - Jovy Marcelo
1996 - Scott Brayton

Daytona 500 Race

2001 - Dale Earnhardt

Daytona 500 Practice/Qualifying

1972 - Friday Hassler
1980 - Ricky Knotts
1994 - Neil Bonnett
1994 - Rodney Orr

Open wheel racing is more dangerous (obviously) when wheel-to-wheel contact occurs, plus the fact IndyCars don't have roll cages, or metal all around the driver to absorb the impact.

While they have been 2 more deaths since 1970 at the Indy 500 (and the practice/qualifying for the race) in the modern day era - I don't thing you can "obviously" determine that Indy Cars racing is more dangerous.

They are different.

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by The Champ

it only counts the years from the first fatality to the last fatality. It ignores the years before the first fatality and the 41 years since the last one.

Umm...I think that's how you calculate stats, from the first one to the last one. Darn it, and I have a degree in Computer Science and wasted my time in Statistical Analysis.

In the last 41 years there has not been a single fatality during the Indy 500. That's a very good thing. But by your claimed statistic of one death every 3.8 years - there should have been another 10.8 fatalities. But there hasn't even been a single ONE.

So eliminate the past 41 years, that means there was a death every 1.3 years up to 1970 at Indy. Wow, that sounds safe to me.

In the modern day era (1970 - present - selective - but fair to both sides based on safety improvements made to both sports) there has not been a fatality during the Indy 500 (see previous post about Swede Savage), but there has been a fatality during the Daytona 500.

Again, you missed the entire point. There have been over 700+ RACES at Daytona since 1959, there's been 54 races at Indy. Easy math, a death is 12 times more likely at Daytona than at Indy.

But there's been 2 more deaths at the Indy 500 than at Daytona since 1959.

CONCLUSION : Indy is more dangerous than Daytona.

And again, you can't compare drivers between the two sports. IndyCar drivers are more talented, and F1 drivers are on a different level.

In NASCAR, if you miss you're turn-in mark, you correct and continue, but you've lost a second on the leader. At Indy, if you miss you're turn-in mark, you're in a wall.

IndyCar drivers can make the transition to NASCAR, but a NASCAR driver can't make the transition to IndyCar. Why is that?

And I'm not talking about successful transitions, just merely being able to drive an IndyCar through an entire race without crashing.

The IndyCar and F1 drivers that have crossed over to NASCAR (which they did for money) have struggled on ovals because there's little driving involved. Montoya, Patrick, Hornish (who is doing much better), Raikkonen, Allmendinger, they have all struggled because most of the NASCAR schedule are 1.5 ovals or superspeedways.

But note how the true talent rises to the top when they have to actually DRIVE the car, as on a road course.

Montoya, Allmendinger, Hornish, even Danica, seem to have a totally different car and team when they run a road course. They typically run in the top 5, or qualify in the top 5, where as the rest of the season they settle for top 20 finishes.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Umm...I think that's how you calculate stats, from the first one to the last one. Darn it, and I have a degree in Computer Science and wasted my time in Statistical Analysis.

Well, I guess if they stopped racing at Indy after the 1973 500, your statistics would mean something. Personally, I think a 41 year stretch with ZERO fatalities during the actual race is a worth of taking into consideration.

But I don't have a degree in statistical analysis - so maybe the last 41 years just really don't exist.

So eliminate the past 41 years, that means there was a death every 1.3 years up to 1970 at Indy. Wow, that sounds safe to me.

You want to only count the dark ages. All I know is that there aren't any deaths at all during the Indy 500 from 1974 to present. That does sound safer now than back then.

Again, you missed the entire point. There have been over 700+ RACES at Daytona since 1959, there's been 54 races at Indy. Easy math, a death is 12 times more likely at Daytona than at Indy.

Actually, you're the one missing the point - twice now. After you correctly pointed out that I was including different series, I extracted everything but the Daytona 500 for my post at 7:28 PM last night.

Then this morning, when I realized that you hadn't taken the time to READ and COMPREHEND my post from last night before you went on a diatribe and started including practice and qualifying for the Indy 500, I took the time to list all race, practice and qualifying fatalities for only the 44 Daytona 500's, along with practice and qualifying for the Daytona 500 since 1970 and the same for the Indy 500.

Which sure doesn't add up to 700 NASCAR RACES as you've mistakenly claimed twice now.

And again, you can't compare drivers between the two sports. IndyCar drivers are more talented, and F1 drivers are on a different level.

Your opinion.

This thread is about a driver that has had her best success driving Indy Cars and most of us realize that she really is in over her head trying to make it on the NASCAR circuit.

There have been many failed attempts by Indy Car drivers to make it in NASCAR. The best success story is Tony Stewart - but he has been successful in every venue he has chosen to compete in.

IndyCar drivers can make the transition to NASCAR, but a NASCAR driver can't make the transition to IndyCar. Why is that?

And I'm not talking about successful transitions, just merely being able to drive an IndyCar through an entire race without crashing.

I guess you've never heard of Donnie Allison...

Donnie Allison finished fourth and was named Rookie of the Year at Indy in 1970. His first race ever in an Indy Car - he not only didn't crash - he was a serious contender for the win.

Once again, you're wrong...

The IndyCar and F1 drivers that have crossed over to NASCAR (which they did for money) have struggled on ovals because there's little driving involved. Montoya, Patrick, Hornish (who is doing much better), Raikkonen, Allmendinger, they have all struggled because most of the NASCAR schedule are 1.5 ovals or superspeedways.

Isn't the Brickyard an "oval"?

Montoya, Allmendinger, Hornish, even Danica, seem to have a totally different car and team when they run a road course. They typically run in the top 5, or qualify in the top 5, where as the rest of the season they settle for top 20 finishes.

To keep this short - I'm only going to deal with the touring queen... As this post is about her:


6/23/2012 Sargento 200 Road America - started 10th, finished 12th

8/11/2012 Zippo 200 at The Glen Watkins Glen International - started 23rd, finished 43rd

8/18/2012 NAPA Auto Parts 200 Circuit Gilles Villenueve, Montreal, started 4th, finished 27th

8/20/2011 NAPA Auto Parts 200 Circuit Gilles Villenueve, Montreal - started 25th, finished 24th

Average start - 17 Average finish - 26.5... That's pretty close to what she's doing this year at ovals.

Maybe she isn't quite as good as you thought...

[MikeNoun]

Champ, you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

Daytona holds two races a year for Cup, two races a year for Nationwide, multiple shootouts, race qualifiers, none of which Indy does at the Indy 500. Daytona is used 12 times more than IRP is.

And AGAIN (put your listening ears on), NASCAR cars run in a pack, and most accidents are multi-car accidents. At Indy, most crashes are single car accidents that caused death, because the speeds are higher, and it's more dangerous when you lose control of the car.

And wait a minute, seriously, all you could find to prove your point that NASCAR drivers can run IndyCar was one hack driver named Donnie Allison? The guy won 10 NASCAR races in his 20-year career. His brother Bobby had the talent.

IndyCar drivers can make the transition to NASCAR because anyone can drive a NASCAR car, but NASCAR drivers can't make the transition to IndyCars, because they won't let them run on an open-wheeler unless they've proven their metal. They're too dangerous.

Tony Stewart started in IndyCar at the 1996 Disney 200. He was good enough to continue in IndyCar, but not good enough to be an IndyCar champion (3 wins in 5 years, slightly better than Danica). He moved on to the easy stuff (NASCAR) where the car is more important than the driver, and has become a multiple champion.

I think what irritates you is that Danica Patrick is a better driver than Dale Earnhardt Jr. Danica can drive an IndyCar (which right there places her above Earnhardt), she can speak in coherent sentences, and can drive a road course. Dale Jr. can do none of these things. At least Danica gave Earnhardt some pointers on driving (which he actually used), and it revitalized his career. He now removes his hands from the steering wheel during a wreck, and he changed to a smaller steering wheel, based on Danica's advice.

Dale Earnhardt Jr - 15 years of full-time racing, 19 wins, and only 1 win in the past 5 years (like Danica), yet Dale Jr. is the highest paid driver in NASCAR. He only wins ovals, the easy stuff, and he admits he hates road courses. He's a shadow of his dad's talent.

And yet you criticize Danica Patrick for getting too much attention for her driving skills?

Danica qualified 10th (out of 43) at Road America in 2012, and was in the Top 5 all day. She had a chance to win, except on a late restart, Jacques Villeneuve plowed into her and sent her into a sand pit. And at the 2012 Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, she was LEADING the pack, when some nut job threw a shoe over the fence. Not able to avoid the debris, she ran it over, and ended her day.

By the way, this proves how hard it is to get a ride in a NASCAR car or truck.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Champ, you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

You may want to double check your facts...

Daytona holds two races a year for Cup, two races a year for Nationwide, multiple shootouts, race qualifiers, none of which Indy does at the Indy 500. Daytona is used 12 times more than IRP is.

Please READ and COMPREHEND. I have ONLY been counting the Daytona 500 for the last day...

And wait a minute, seriously, all you could find to prove your point that NASCAR drivers can run IndyCar was one hack driver named Donnie Allison? The guy won 10 NASCAR races in his 20-year career. His brother Bobby had the talent.

Just making my point even more. Donnie wasn't as good as Bobby (your words), but he was good enough to be Rookie of the Year at the Indy 500 in 1971 and finished 4th. BTW - he finished 6th the next year.

And speaking of Bobby - he also raced (and finished) the Indy 500 in 1974. I didn't bother mentioning that fact because you claimed that a NASCAR driver couldn't possibly race an Indy car without crashing in the race. I thought just one example would make you realize that you were wrong. I gave you too much credit.

IndyCar drivers can make the transition to NASCAR because anyone can drive a NASCAR car, but NASCAR drivers can't make the transition to IndyCars, because they won't let them run on an open-wheeler unless they've proven their metal. They're too dangerous.

Please go and reread my last two paragraphs. Then read the following one.

Kurt Busch did an Indy Car test this year and ran well enough to earn the right to attempt to qualify for the Indy 500.

Tony Stewart started in IndyCar at the 1996 Disney 200. He was good enough to continue in IndyCar, but not good enough to be an IndyCar champion (3 wins in 5 years, slightly better than Danica). He moved on to the easy stuff (NASCAR) where the car is more important than the driver, and has become a multiple champion.

Boy, you really are digging a hole now...

He was the INDY CAR CHAMPION in 1997 - his first full year in Indy Cars. He backed that up with a 3rd place finish in 1998. BTW - he drove all 21 races in that 2 year period. He drove 3 races in 1996 and 1 race each in 1999 and 2000 to make a grand total of 26 races. 3 wins in 26 races looks like about 1 win every 9 races.

Danica raced 115 of 116 Indy Car races during her 7 year run. 1 win every 115 races if my calculations are right.

Yeah, Mike, that is just slightly better than Danica...

I think what irritates you is that Danica Patrick is a better driver than Dale Earnhardt Jr. Danica can drive an IndyCar (which right there places her above Earnhardt), she can speak in coherent sentences, and can drive a road course. Dale Jr. can do none of these things. At least Danica gave Earnhardt some pointers on driving (which he actually used), and it revitalized his career. He now removes his hands from the steering wheel during a wreck, and he changed to a smaller steering wheel, based on Danica's advice.

Dale Earnhardt Jr - 15 years of full-time racing, 19 wins, and only 1 win in the past 5 years (like Danica), yet Dale Jr. is the highest paid driver in NASCAR. He only wins ovals, the easy stuff, and he admits he hates road courses. He's a shadow of his dad's talent.

You're almost down to China now - keep digging...

Danica has 1 win in 16 years of racing.

Dale Jr. does have 19 Cup wins. But you ignore the 23 Nationwide/Busch wins - and 2 Nationwide Championships...

I could go into other wins, but I hope you're starting to realize how foolish you position is.

And yet you criticize Danica Patrick for getting too much attention for her driving skills?

What skills? She's 30th in the points...

Danica qualified 10th (out of 43) at Road America in 2012, and was in the Top 5 all day. She had a chance to win, except on a late restart, Jacques Villeneuve plowed into her and sent her into a sand pit. And at the 2012 Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, she was LEADING the pack, when some nut job threw a shoe over the fence. Not able to avoid the debris, she ran it over, and ended her day.

I already posted that she qualified 10th at Road American in my last post. Big deal. Jacque Villeneuve (another Indy Car driver) plowed into her - I guess those Indy Car drivers just suck...

And Danica didn't have her day ended by a shoe on the track - she did fail to avoid a shoe, but she finished the race.

Bottom line, things like this happen all the time to all the drivers. But in 16 years of driving race cars - Danica has only managed one win.

By the way, this proves how hard it is to get a ride in a NASCAR car or truck.

Well, this is how hard it is to get an Indy Car ride...

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Boy, you really are digging a hole now...

He was the INDY CAR CHAMPION in 1997 - his first full year in Indy Cars. He backed that up with a 3rd place finish in 1998. BTW - he drove all 21 races in that 2 year period. He drove 3 races in 1996 and 1 race each in 1999 and 2000 to make a grand total of 26 races. 3 wins in 26 races looks like about 1 win every 9 races.

Tony Stewart won in 1997, but if you knew anything about IRL (which obviously you don't), you'd know that the pre-2000 era IRL was separate from CART, and it was a joke. Stewart ran in IRL because they had a bunch of hacks, so he won.

Here's some legendary names that Tony Stewart ran against in 1997.

Davey Hamilton?
Marco Greco?
Eddie Cheever (who NEVER won an an F1 race, NEVER won a CART race, but won 5 IRL races)
Scott Goodyear (who failed in CART and jumped to IRL, it was easier to win)

And yes, folks, those are the next 4 drivers after Tony Stewart in the 1997 IRL Championship. Hands up if you've ever heard of the Davey Hamilton or Marco Greco.

Anyone? Anyone?

Meanwhile, CART had a few names in 1997 you may recognize:

Alex Zanardi
Paul Tracy
Michael Andretti
Scott Pruett
Bobby Rahal
Al Unser Jr
Dario Franchitti

Originally Posted by The Champ

Dale Jr. does have 19 Cup wins. But you ignore the 23 Nationwide/Busch wins - and 2 Nationwide Championships...

I could go into other wins, but I hope you're starting to realize how foolish you position is.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm familiar with the Nationwide Series. That's the series dominated by Kyle Busch, the greatest driver in Nationwide history. But wait, you're a Busch hater (I forgot), so I guess we can exclude his 57 wins in Nationwide, because that series doesn't count....unless we're talking about Dale Jr, then the legendary Earnhardt won 23 more races.

Dale Jr. is overrated, just as Danica Patrick is. Both are all hype, both are the two most popular drivers in NASCAR. The difference is that Dale Jr. is the highest paid driver in NASCAR, so he wins the Overrated Award.

And Danica didn't have her day ended by a shoe on the track - she did fail to avoid a shoe, but she finished the race.

I said it ENDED HER DAY, as in she was eliminated from winning. That's what "ended her day" means. You knew that Champ.

I love picking on you Dale Jr fans. It's like picking on a Cubs fan. All hype, enormously popular, overpaid, overrated, crappy record, and a "wait till next year" excuse extravaganza. Dale Jr. has the best cars, the best team, the best equipment, and he still sucks, with 1 win in 5 years.

And if Danica gave Dale Jr. some tips, and he used them, what does that make Dale Jr?

IndyCar drivers go to NASCAR because there's more money, it's more popular, the cars are easier to drive, and it's much safer than open wheeled cars.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Tony Stewart won in 1997, but if you knew anything about IRL (which obviously you don't), you'd know that the pre-2000 era IRL was separate from CART, and it was a joke. Stewart ran in IRL because they had a bunch of hacks, so he won.

Which series ran at Indianapolis? You know, the track that the cars are named after?

Let's get back to the fact that you claimed that Stewart was "not good enough to be an IndyCar champion". What kind of car was he driving for 3 races in 1996, 10 races in 1997, 11 races in 1998, 1 race in 1999 and 2000? What was the name of the series that he won the title in 1997?

Here's some legendary names that Tony Stewart ran against in 1997.

You mention Al Unser Jr. You might be interested to read what Al Unser Jr. has to say about the topic of:

Who are the best drivers in the world?

"You ask if NASCAR drivers are the best in the world," two-time Indianapolis 500 champion Al Unser Jr. said. "Absolutely. Driving in NASCAR they are. And the top drivers in IndyCar are the best in the world of IndyCar.

"The top drivers in the World of Outlaws are the best in those cars.

I was, in the '80s and '90s, one of the best Indy car drivers in the world, and I went over to NASCAR but I was schooled."

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm familiar with the Nationwide Series. That's the series dominated by Kyle Busch, the greatest driver in Nationwide history. But wait, you're a Busch hater (I forgot), so I guess we can exclude his 57 wins in Nationwide, because that series doesn't count....unless we're talking about Dale Jr, then the legendary Earnhardt won 23 more races.

Yes you are ignoring the Nationwide series. You talk about Danica's 1 win in the last 5 years as if that is significant. It's one win in her entire career in automobile racing.

It's well established that I don't like Kyle Busch. But I don't think I've ever said that he doesn't have talent.

I'm trying to be fair to everyone - you just want to cherry pick some random stats and ignore the real facts.

Dale Jr. is overrated, just as Danica Patrick is. Both are all hype, both are the two most popular drivers in NASCAR. The difference is that Dale Jr. is the highest paid driver in NASCAR, so he wins the Overrated Award.

Dale Jr. has 42 NASCAR wins. His Dad was a legend. Dale has a name, but he also earned his popularity on the track. If it was just his last name, then Kerry Earnhardt would also be one of the most popular drivers in NASCAR.

I said it ENDED HER DAY, as in she was eliminated from winning. That's what "ended her day" means. You knew that Champ.

Once again, stuff happens - even in the NATIONWIDE series. But even if she would have won that race - by your standards - it wouldn't count.

If you don't want to count Dale's 2 NATIONWIDE Championships and his 23 wins - then surely you wouldn't want to count a win (if she would have ever won) in the NATIONWIDE series for Danica.

I love picking on you Dale Jr fans. It's like picking on a Cubs fan. All hype, enormously popular, overpaid, overrated, crappy record, and a "wait till next year" excuse extravaganza. Dale Jr. has the best cars, the best team, the best equipment, and he still sucks, with 1 win in 5 years.

First of all - I've never been a fan of any of the Earnhardt drivers. I respect their talent, but I've not been a fan of Dale Sr., Dale Jr. or any other driver by that last name.

And Dale Jr. has 1 Cup win and 1 Nationwide win in the last 5 years. 1 + 1 = 2. Remember - you want to give Danica credit for "almost" winning a Nationwide race....

IndyCar drivers go to NASCAR because there's more money, it's more popular, the cars are easier to drive, and it's much safer than open wheeled cars.

Your opinion.

But funny how you claimed that a NASCAR driver couldn't even finish an Indy Car race - but a "hack" (your words) like Donnie Allison from the "Alabama Gang" - just a good old boy - hopped into one of those "much harder" to drive Indy Cars and finished 4th in the 1971 Indy 500 (Rookie of the Year too).

Those Indy Cars must be like taking the old Toyota out for a Sunday drive if a "hack" like Allison can do that well in his first attempt...

[Racer81x]

[QUOTE=MikeNoun;4938075]

And AGAIN (put your listening ears on), NASCAR cars run in a pack, and most accidents are multi-car accidents. At Indy, most crashes are single car accidents that caused death, because the speeds are higher, and it's more dangerous when you lose control of the car.

-NASCAR ONLY RUNS IN A PACK AT DAYTONA AND DEGA. MOST OF THE CRASHES AT INDY ARE SINGLE CAR, BECAUSE THE PACK IS SPREAD OUT.


IndyCar drivers can make the transition to NASCAR because anyone can drive a NASCAR car, but NASCAR drivers can't make the transition to IndyCars, because they won't let them run on an open-wheeler unless they've proven their metal. They're too dangerous.
YOU DON'T SEE ANY NASCAR DRIVERS WANTING TO RUN ONLY INDY SERIES, BECAUSE IT'S NOT AS POPULAR AS NASCAR.

I think what irritates you is that Danica Patrick is a better driver than Dale Earnhardt Jr. Danica can drive an IndyCar (which right there places her above Earnhardt), she can speak in coherent sentences, and can drive a road course. Dale Jr. can do none of these things. At least Danica gave Earnhardt some pointers on driving (which he actually used), and it revitalized his career. He now removes his hands from the steering wheel during a wreck, and he changed to a smaller steering wheel, based on Danica's advice.

DANICA BETTER THAN JR THANKS FOR THE GOOD LAUGH!

Dale Earnhardt Jr - 15 years of full-time racing, 19 wins, and only 1 win in the past 5 years (like Danica), yet Dale Jr. is the highest paid driver in NASCAR. He only wins ovals, the easy stuff.

ONLY WINS OVALS, THE EASY STUFF? I'D LIKE TO SEE YOU TRY, IF IT'S SO EASY HOW COME WANICA HASEN'T WON AN OVAL?