[The Champ]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Champ, you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

You may want to double check your facts...

Daytona holds two races a year for Cup, two races a year for Nationwide, multiple shootouts, race qualifiers, none of which Indy does at the Indy 500. Daytona is used 12 times more than IRP is.

Please READ and COMPREHEND. I have ONLY been counting the Daytona 500 for the last day...

And wait a minute, seriously, all you could find to prove your point that NASCAR drivers can run IndyCar was one hack driver named Donnie Allison? The guy won 10 NASCAR races in his 20-year career. His brother Bobby had the talent.

Just making my point even more. Donnie wasn't as good as Bobby (your words), but he was good enough to be Rookie of the Year at the Indy 500 in 1971 and finished 4th. BTW - he finished 6th the next year.

And speaking of Bobby - he also raced (and finished) the Indy 500 in 1974. I didn't bother mentioning that fact because you claimed that a NASCAR driver couldn't possibly race an Indy car without crashing in the race. I thought just one example would make you realize that you were wrong. I gave you too much credit.

IndyCar drivers can make the transition to NASCAR because anyone can drive a NASCAR car, but NASCAR drivers can't make the transition to IndyCars, because they won't let them run on an open-wheeler unless they've proven their metal. They're too dangerous.

Please go and reread my last two paragraphs. Then read the following one.

Kurt Busch did an Indy Car test this year and ran well enough to earn the right to attempt to qualify for the Indy 500.

Tony Stewart started in IndyCar at the 1996 Disney 200. He was good enough to continue in IndyCar, but not good enough to be an IndyCar champion (3 wins in 5 years, slightly better than Danica). He moved on to the easy stuff (NASCAR) where the car is more important than the driver, and has become a multiple champion.

Boy, you really are digging a hole now...

He was the INDY CAR CHAMPION in 1997 - his first full year in Indy Cars. He backed that up with a 3rd place finish in 1998. BTW - he drove all 21 races in that 2 year period. He drove 3 races in 1996 and 1 race each in 1999 and 2000 to make a grand total of 26 races. 3 wins in 26 races looks like about 1 win every 9 races.

Danica raced 115 of 116 Indy Car races during her 7 year run. 1 win every 115 races if my calculations are right.

Yeah, Mike, that is just slightly better than Danica...

I think what irritates you is that Danica Patrick is a better driver than Dale Earnhardt Jr. Danica can drive an IndyCar (which right there places her above Earnhardt), she can speak in coherent sentences, and can drive a road course. Dale Jr. can do none of these things. At least Danica gave Earnhardt some pointers on driving (which he actually used), and it revitalized his career. He now removes his hands from the steering wheel during a wreck, and he changed to a smaller steering wheel, based on Danica's advice.

Dale Earnhardt Jr - 15 years of full-time racing, 19 wins, and only 1 win in the past 5 years (like Danica), yet Dale Jr. is the highest paid driver in NASCAR. He only wins ovals, the easy stuff, and he admits he hates road courses. He's a shadow of his dad's talent.

You're almost down to China now - keep digging...

Danica has 1 win in 16 years of racing.

Dale Jr. does have 19 Cup wins. But you ignore the 23 Nationwide/Busch wins - and 2 Nationwide Championships...

I could go into other wins, but I hope you're starting to realize how foolish you position is.

And yet you criticize Danica Patrick for getting too much attention for her driving skills?

What skills? She's 30th in the points...

Danica qualified 10th (out of 43) at Road America in 2012, and was in the Top 5 all day. She had a chance to win, except on a late restart, Jacques Villeneuve plowed into her and sent her into a sand pit. And at the 2012 Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, she was LEADING the pack, when some nut job threw a shoe over the fence. Not able to avoid the debris, she ran it over, and ended her day.

I already posted that she qualified 10th at Road American in my last post. Big deal. Jacque Villeneuve (another Indy Car driver) plowed into her - I guess those Indy Car drivers just suck...

And Danica didn't have her day ended by a shoe on the track - she did fail to avoid a shoe, but she finished the race.

Bottom line, things like this happen all the time to all the drivers. But in 16 years of driving race cars - Danica has only managed one win.

By the way, this proves how hard it is to get a ride in a NASCAR car or truck.

Well, this is how hard it is to get an Indy Car ride...

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Boy, you really are digging a hole now...

He was the INDY CAR CHAMPION in 1997 - his first full year in Indy Cars. He backed that up with a 3rd place finish in 1998. BTW - he drove all 21 races in that 2 year period. He drove 3 races in 1996 and 1 race each in 1999 and 2000 to make a grand total of 26 races. 3 wins in 26 races looks like about 1 win every 9 races.

Tony Stewart won in 1997, but if you knew anything about IRL (which obviously you don't), you'd know that the pre-2000 era IRL was separate from CART, and it was a joke. Stewart ran in IRL because they had a bunch of hacks, so he won.

Here's some legendary names that Tony Stewart ran against in 1997.

Davey Hamilton?
Marco Greco?
Eddie Cheever (who NEVER won an an F1 race, NEVER won a CART race, but won 5 IRL races)
Scott Goodyear (who failed in CART and jumped to IRL, it was easier to win)

And yes, folks, those are the next 4 drivers after Tony Stewart in the 1997 IRL Championship. Hands up if you've ever heard of the Davey Hamilton or Marco Greco.

Anyone? Anyone?

Meanwhile, CART had a few names in 1997 you may recognize:

Alex Zanardi
Paul Tracy
Michael Andretti
Scott Pruett
Bobby Rahal
Al Unser Jr
Dario Franchitti

Originally Posted by The Champ

Dale Jr. does have 19 Cup wins. But you ignore the 23 Nationwide/Busch wins - and 2 Nationwide Championships...

I could go into other wins, but I hope you're starting to realize how foolish you position is.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm familiar with the Nationwide Series. That's the series dominated by Kyle Busch, the greatest driver in Nationwide history. But wait, you're a Busch hater (I forgot), so I guess we can exclude his 57 wins in Nationwide, because that series doesn't count....unless we're talking about Dale Jr, then the legendary Earnhardt won 23 more races.

Dale Jr. is overrated, just as Danica Patrick is. Both are all hype, both are the two most popular drivers in NASCAR. The difference is that Dale Jr. is the highest paid driver in NASCAR, so he wins the Overrated Award.

And Danica didn't have her day ended by a shoe on the track - she did fail to avoid a shoe, but she finished the race.

I said it ENDED HER DAY, as in she was eliminated from winning. That's what "ended her day" means. You knew that Champ.

I love picking on you Dale Jr fans. It's like picking on a Cubs fan. All hype, enormously popular, overpaid, overrated, crappy record, and a "wait till next year" excuse extravaganza. Dale Jr. has the best cars, the best team, the best equipment, and he still sucks, with 1 win in 5 years.

And if Danica gave Dale Jr. some tips, and he used them, what does that make Dale Jr?

IndyCar drivers go to NASCAR because there's more money, it's more popular, the cars are easier to drive, and it's much safer than open wheeled cars.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Tony Stewart won in 1997, but if you knew anything about IRL (which obviously you don't), you'd know that the pre-2000 era IRL was separate from CART, and it was a joke. Stewart ran in IRL because they had a bunch of hacks, so he won.

Which series ran at Indianapolis? You know, the track that the cars are named after?

Let's get back to the fact that you claimed that Stewart was "not good enough to be an IndyCar champion". What kind of car was he driving for 3 races in 1996, 10 races in 1997, 11 races in 1998, 1 race in 1999 and 2000? What was the name of the series that he won the title in 1997?

Here's some legendary names that Tony Stewart ran against in 1997.

You mention Al Unser Jr. You might be interested to read what Al Unser Jr. has to say about the topic of:

Who are the best drivers in the world?

"You ask if NASCAR drivers are the best in the world," two-time Indianapolis 500 champion Al Unser Jr. said. "Absolutely. Driving in NASCAR they are. And the top drivers in IndyCar are the best in the world of IndyCar.

"The top drivers in the World of Outlaws are the best in those cars.

I was, in the '80s and '90s, one of the best Indy car drivers in the world, and I went over to NASCAR but I was schooled."

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm familiar with the Nationwide Series. That's the series dominated by Kyle Busch, the greatest driver in Nationwide history. But wait, you're a Busch hater (I forgot), so I guess we can exclude his 57 wins in Nationwide, because that series doesn't count....unless we're talking about Dale Jr, then the legendary Earnhardt won 23 more races.

Yes you are ignoring the Nationwide series. You talk about Danica's 1 win in the last 5 years as if that is significant. It's one win in her entire career in automobile racing.

It's well established that I don't like Kyle Busch. But I don't think I've ever said that he doesn't have talent.

I'm trying to be fair to everyone - you just want to cherry pick some random stats and ignore the real facts.

Dale Jr. is overrated, just as Danica Patrick is. Both are all hype, both are the two most popular drivers in NASCAR. The difference is that Dale Jr. is the highest paid driver in NASCAR, so he wins the Overrated Award.

Dale Jr. has 42 NASCAR wins. His Dad was a legend. Dale has a name, but he also earned his popularity on the track. If it was just his last name, then Kerry Earnhardt would also be one of the most popular drivers in NASCAR.

I said it ENDED HER DAY, as in she was eliminated from winning. That's what "ended her day" means. You knew that Champ.

Once again, stuff happens - even in the NATIONWIDE series. But even if she would have won that race - by your standards - it wouldn't count.

If you don't want to count Dale's 2 NATIONWIDE Championships and his 23 wins - then surely you wouldn't want to count a win (if she would have ever won) in the NATIONWIDE series for Danica.

I love picking on you Dale Jr fans. It's like picking on a Cubs fan. All hype, enormously popular, overpaid, overrated, crappy record, and a "wait till next year" excuse extravaganza. Dale Jr. has the best cars, the best team, the best equipment, and he still sucks, with 1 win in 5 years.

First of all - I've never been a fan of any of the Earnhardt drivers. I respect their talent, but I've not been a fan of Dale Sr., Dale Jr. or any other driver by that last name.

And Dale Jr. has 1 Cup win and 1 Nationwide win in the last 5 years. 1 + 1 = 2. Remember - you want to give Danica credit for "almost" winning a Nationwide race....

IndyCar drivers go to NASCAR because there's more money, it's more popular, the cars are easier to drive, and it's much safer than open wheeled cars.

Your opinion.

But funny how you claimed that a NASCAR driver couldn't even finish an Indy Car race - but a "hack" (your words) like Donnie Allison from the "Alabama Gang" - just a good old boy - hopped into one of those "much harder" to drive Indy Cars and finished 4th in the 1971 Indy 500 (Rookie of the Year too).

Those Indy Cars must be like taking the old Toyota out for a Sunday drive if a "hack" like Allison can do that well in his first attempt...

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Let's get back to the fact that you claimed that Stewart was "not good enough to be an IndyCar champion". What kind of car was he driving for 3 races in 1996, 10 races in 1997, 11 races in 1998, 1 race in 1999 and 2000? What was the name of the series that he won the title in 1997?

Tony Stewart's 1997 IRL Championship is as relevant as a professional team winning a championship during a strike year. He won against a bunch of scabs. Anyone that followed IndyCar racing back then ignored the IRL, along with the Indy 500, because it was a watered down mess.

Stewart is a great driver, he just can't compete with real IndyCar drivers. One of the reasons he left IndyCars when he did. They were combining IRL and CART once again, so Tony would have to face real drivers.

A little history...

In 1997, Tony George specified new technical rules for less expensive cars and "production based" engines that outlawed the CART-spec cars that had been the mainstay of the race since the late 1970s. For the next few years almost all of the CART teams and drivers did not compete in the Indy 500. While this situation allowed many American drivers to participate in an event they might otherwise have been unable to afford (hacks), the turbulent political situation and the absence of many top IndyCar drivers, big-name sponsors and faster CART-spec cars cast something of a shadow over the race. It was certainly arguable that to the average fan, the replacement of at least fairly well known foreign drivers by almost-unknown American ones was not perceived as a real gain.

At its inception, the series and George himself were criticized by members of the media and some CART competitors. The IRL's early seasons consisted of sparse schedules, mostly unknown drivers, and inexperienced teams, even in the Indy 500. Eventually, the schedule expanded and the caliber of drivers improved. The IRL began to draw teams from CART starting in 2000, contributing to the latter's bankruptcy, re-branding as Champ Car in 2003, and ultimate demise and absorption by the IRL in 2008.

Which series ran at Indianapolis? You know, the track that the cars are named after?

Just because they named the series IRL (Indy Racing League) means he was a great IndyCar driver?

That's like saying the NASCAR cars are stock because the "SC" in NASCAR stands for "stock car".

And Dale Jr. has 1 Cup win and 1 Nationwide win in the last 5 years. 1 + 1 = 2. Remember - you want to give Danica credit for "almost" winning a Nationwide race....

Facts are facts. If you cherry pick stats, then the sword cuts both ways.

Danica has 1 win in 5 years at the top level (IndyCar). Dale Jr. has 1 win in 5 years at the top level (Sprint Cup). They're both overrated.

Those Indy Cars must be like taking the old Toyota out for a Sunday drive if a "hack" like Allison can do that well in his first attempt...

I never said the Indy 500 was hard to drive, I said it was dangerous (which it is). There have been a lot of no-name one-time hacks that have run the Indy 500, and don't race the series. It's all about sponsorship.

By the way, ever notice how when the NASCAR boys go to a road course, some of the drivers get replaced by "ringers"? That's because many of them can only turn left. Danica has proven that an IndyCar driver can run a NASCAR road course, but a NASCAR driver can't run an IndyCar on a road course circuit.

Who are the best drivers in the world?

"You ask if NASCAR drivers are the best in the world," two-time Indianapolis 500 champion Al Unser Jr. said. "Absolutely. Driving in NASCAR they are. And the top drivers in IndyCar are the best in the world of IndyCar.

"The top drivers in the World of Outlaws are the best in those cars.

I was, in the '80s and '90s, one of the best Indy car drivers in the world, and I went over to NASCAR but I was schooled."

Ummm...nice try Champ. Cherry picking as usual.

Finish the story. The next line reads:

Schooled is a bit harsh. Unser was running fifth in his only Cup start, the 1993 Daytona 500, when he was wrecked by Dale Earnhardt with about 10 laps to go. In 53 International Race of Champions events featuring the top drivers from all motorsports in identically prepared stock cars, Unser won 11 times.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Danica has 1 win in 5 years at the top level (IndyCar). Dale Jr. has 1 win in 5 years at the top level (Sprint Cup).

That is correct.

What you keep ignoring is the fact that Danica's 1 win is also her only win in her automobile racing career. She didn't "earn" an Indy Car ride anymore than she "earned" a Nationwide or Cup ride.

She just isn't very good.

Dale Jr., besides winning 19 races in his Cup career, earned 23 wins and 2 Championships prior to getting his full time Cup ride.

If you can't admit the fact that Dale Jr. has earned the right to drive in the Cup series, then your opinions are pretty meaningless to me.

I never said the Indy 500 was hard to drive, I said it was dangerous (which it is).

You may not have stated specifically that the Indy 500 was hard to drive, but you sure strongly implied it when you said:

And I'm not talking about successful transitions, just merely being able to drive an IndyCar through an entire race without crashing.

Those are your words - you said a NASCAR driver couldn't drive through an entire race without crashing.

Either you were lying won't you posted that, or you're lying now. Maybe both...

As to being dangerous - both series are dangerous.

But there hasn't been a driver that has died during the Indy 500 race in over 40 years. There has been a driver that died in the Daytona 500 race this century. I could try and say that Daytona is more dangerous than Indy, but I think both series have taken great steps to promote driver safety. But they are both very dangerous sports.

By the way, ever notice how when the NASCAR boys go to a road course, some of the drivers get replaced by "ringers"? That's because many of them can only turn left. Danica has proven that an IndyCar driver can run a NASCAR road course, but a NASCAR driver can't run an IndyCar on a road course circuit.

You realize that the "ringers" only come into drive the road courses for a few (very few) of the teams that are underfunded and non competitive. None of the top teams with drivers that are attempting to earn their way into the Chase will let someone else drive their car - they want/need the points for themselves.

Last year the best finishing "ringer" at Watkins Glen was Boris Said (he's never raced Indy) and Boris finished 25th. Using my uneducated math skills (I don't have a degree in statisical analysis) - that means that 24 regular Cup racers finished ahead of the "ringer".

And just stop with trying to put Danica on a pedestal - she hasn't proven anything in NASCAR road course.

Robby Gordon (and probably some others) proved that an Indy Car driver could run a NASCAR road course a LONG time ago.

As to a NASCAR driver not being able to drive a Indy Car road course - I'll take that with a grain of salt after your previous statements about a NASCAR driver not being able to drive the Indy 500 without wrecking...

Ummm...nice try Champ. Cherry picking as usual.

Finish the story. The next line reads:

Schooled is a bit harsh. Unser was running fifth in his only Cup start, the 1993 Daytona 500, when he was wrecked by Dale Earnhardt with about 10 laps to go.

Running 5th with 10 laps to go means nothing. As you should be well aware, in the last 10 laps at Daytona a driver can easily move up 10 - 20 positions or fall back by the same number.

I was at the 1993 Daytona 500.

Al Unser Jr. wasn't even on the track with 10 laps to go.

He drove a Rick Hendrick Valvoline Chevrolet - started 40th, finished 36th and was out of the race by lap 157.

Nice try...

[Alvin]

"What you keep ignoring is the fact that...your opinions are pretty meaningless..."

Says it all - Earth to Champ!

[MikeNoun]

And dead silence about Tony Stewart winning the 1997 IRL Championship. I figured as much, because you KNOW that Tony was running against mid-level talent those years. He's a great all-around driver, but there's no way he could compete in IndyCar today (other than the Indy 500).

Truth hurts, don't it?

Originally Posted by The Champ

If you can't admit the fact that Dale Jr. has earned the right to drive in the Cup series, then your opinions are pretty meaningless to me.

Never said that. I said he was overrated, as is Danica Patrick. Difference is that Dale Jr. is the highest paid driver in NASCAR, and he doesn't deserve it. His last name allowed him to ALWAYS have top notch equipment, and all he had to do is belch and he's surrounded by the media, who are clamoring for a sound byte or an interview.

Sort of like Danica Patrick.

Dale Jr. can drive, I never said he couldn't. I said he was overrated (which he is), and the fawning over him by his fans is nauseating.

Sort of like Danica Patrick's fans.

Dale Jr. gets the "hands off" treatment, because if a driver says anything about him, or punts him out of the way, the wrath of Junior Nation descends. Basically, Dale Jr. can do no wrong, and people make excuses for him.

Sort of like Danica Patrick.

..you said a NASCAR driver couldn't drive through an entire race without crashing.

Couldn't drive an IndyCar RACE without crashing, not the Indy 500. Anyone can drive the Indy 500. Heck, even a NASCAR driver can do it.

You realize that the "ringers" only come into drive the road courses for a few (very few) of the teams that are underfunded and non competitive. None of the top teams with drivers that are attempting to earn their way into the Chase will let someone else drive their car - they want/need the points for themselves.

Uhhhh....yeah....the Chase changed a lot of things. Drivers need points to get to the Chase, so they try to drive the road courses if they can.

Here's another fact that will help you look foolish (I know you don't need any more help, but here goes). How come IndyCar drivers don't use "ringers" from NASCAR? Gee, I wonder why? Shouldn't poorly funded IndyCar teams be phoning up NASCAR drivers when they go to Michigan or some other high banked superspeedway?

Fact is that IndyCar racers can drive all the tracks, they don't need "ringers". Asking a NASCAR driver to sit in for an IndyCar driver would be like asking a kid that's throwing the football around in their backyard to be a starting QB in the NFL.

And just stop with trying to put Danica on a pedestal - she hasn't proven anything in NASCAR road course.

I never put her on a pedestal. I just like to pick on guys like you, the type that throw a shoe over the fence to ruin someone's race, the type that throws a beer at Jeff Gordon because he beat your favorite driver, or the kind of fan that thinks some assclown like Kevin Harvick deserves to win a championship.

The best moment of the past 5 years in NASCAR was when Kyle Busch shoved Kevin Harvick's car into the wall on pit lane. I have that as my screen saver.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

And dead silence about Tony Stewart winning the 1997 IRL Championship.

Mike

Tony Stewart doesn't need your approval to be considered one of the best racers of all time.

He's got the resume to back it up.

2011, 2005, 2002 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series Champion

1997 Indy Racing League Champion

1995 USAC Triple Crown Champion

1994 USAC National Midget Series Champion

2006 IROC Champion

Couldn't drive an IndyCar RACE without crashing, not the Indy 500.

What kind of car races at the Indy 500? Can you say Indy Car? Isn't that a RACE?

Uhhhh....yeah....the Chase changed a lot of things. Drivers need points to get to the Chase, so they try to drive the road courses if they can.

Mike - even before the Chase - those drivers that wanted to be in contention to win the Championship would never give up their ride to a ringer. Taking a weekend off in June or August would take them out of Championship contention.

Here's another fact that will help you look foolish (I know you don't need any more help, but here goes). How come IndyCar drivers don't use "ringers" from NASCAR?

Mike - Indy Car teams have brought in NASCAR drivers many times.

I think we've already discussed Bobby and Donnie Allison. Some hack driver named Tony drove 2 Indy 500's while driving the full cup schedule - and is the only driver to have ever completed all 1100 miles of the 2001 Indy 500 (6th) and the Coke 600 (3rd) in the same day. He also finished 9th and 4th in the same day, but didn't complete all 1100 miles in 1999

How come an Indy Car driver hasn't been able to hop out of his 500 ride and fly down to Charlotte to log another 600 miles? The only drivers to have ever attempted the Memorial Day Weekend Double were running the full Cup schedule at the time. Donnie Allison (6th at Indy, 2nd at Charlotte), John Andretti, Robby Gordon and Tony Stewart...

I guess that full time Indy Car drivers are all pansies...

I just like to pick on guys like you, the type that throw a shoe over the fence to ruin someone's race, the type that throws a beer at Jeff Gordon because he beat your favorite driver, or the kind of fan that thinks some assclown like Kevin Harvick deserves to win a championship.

You obviously don't know me very well.

The best moment of the past 5 years in NASCAR was when Kyle Busch shoved Kevin Harvick's car into the wall on pit lane. I have that as my screen saver.

After accusing me of being the type of guy that would throw a beer can or a shoe on the track, you boast that "the best moment of the past 5 years" is Kyle Busch banging Harvick's driverless car while crew members are walking nearby both vehicles on pit road.

Maybe you are the kind of guy that would also throw shoes or beer cans on the track. You obviously have no concerns about driver or crew safety.