[gtohurstjudge]

As a 30 year POCI member, I'd like to put in my two cents....I'll make several observations... First of all, in any organization whether it is the slide rule club in High school,
The Glee club, The Lion's Club, or POCI there is going to be politics involved. This is necessary
so that club matters get done. Someone has to make decisions in any organization and invariably there are folks who disagree with those decisions because every human being is different. Very rarely are club officers out to get anybody or make someone else's life
miserable......they are just doing their best to do their job the best way they know how.
Invariably in any club there is a small faction who hates the officers guts and who make trouble for everyone else in the organization. The motivation for the hatred could be a personality clash or just plain jealousy. The fact of the matter is that some people don't
work well with others and should not belong to a club because they don't have the personality
required to get along with others who don't share their viewpoints. The POCI officers I have
met over the years were believe it or not just trying to help the club the best way they
knew how. Just like all people shouldn't belong to a club, not all people should be in an
officer position as they don't have the personal skills for it. To those who have dropped
out, I would say that if you don't have enthusiasm for the organization, then you did yourself and the organization a favor by dropping out. I've heard the same gripes about
POCI since the mid eighties......all of the complaints in this thread are thirty five years
old. Those of you who like this forum better than belonging to a club probably feel this way
because in this forum there are no officers making decisions that you disapprove of. That's
OK for an internet forum but in the real world there are people above you in rank that have
to make decisions, a lot of which you probably won't agree with.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

As a 30 year POCI member, I'd like to put in my two cents....I'll make several observations... First of all, in any organization whether it is the slide rule club in High school,
The Glee club, The Lion's Club, or POCI there is going to be politics involved. This is necessary
so that club matters get done. Someone has to make decisions in any organization and invariably there are folks who disagree with those decisions because every human being is different. Very rarely are club officers out to get anybody or make someone else's life
miserable......they are just doing their best to do their job the best way they know how.
Invariably in any club there is a small faction who hates the officers guts and who make trouble for everyone else in the organization. The motivation for the hatred could be a personality clash or just plain jealousy. The fact of the matter is that some people don't
work well with others and should not belong to a club because they don't have the personality
required to get along with others who don't share their viewpoints. The POCI officers I have
met over the years were believe it or not just trying to help the club the best way they
knew how. Just like all people shouldn't belong to a club, not all people should be in an
officer position as they don't have the personal skills for it. To those who have dropped
out, I would say that if you don't have enthusiasm for the organization, then you did yourself and the organization a favor by dropping out. I've heard the same gripes about
POCI since the mid eighties......all of the complaints in this thread are thirty five years
old. Those of you who like this forum better than belonging to a club probably feel this way
because in this forum there are no officers making decisions that you disapprove of. That's
OK for an internet forum but in the real world there are people above you in rank that have
to make decisions, a lot of which you probably won't agree with.

Winston, where will POCI be in 5 years, or less, if your "the same gripes" are ignored? Ford or Mopar peeps gonna take up the slack? Nope.

POCI - Understood for yrs that most post POCI national events were known as "club breakers" due to a limited amount of local club peeps doing all of the prep, sponsorship, location, promotion and execution work. Then many often struggled post event.

IIRC - this is also what negatively impacted DAPA's great Southern Nats...burn out! Yes?

FWIW - always enjoyed the DAPA Southern Nats. No harm, no foul intended here.

This indeed IS a free forum...POCI is not. People vote with their feet, most never say a word...

Nor do they (or you) really need approval of for examples; your '79 403 TA or '69 GTO 'Tribute' here or elsewhere. Yours - All fine vehicles.

If you don't like mine, I don't need to pay you or your org to tell me the same - that my selections are unacceptable to some "officers". So why would I pay $ to join a group of and have self proclaimed expert(s) attempt to dominate w value, attitude, my-way-or-the-highway negatives, with MY $$$ that I mostly disagree with? Answer: I don't.

Our personal Pontiac's survive without the drama.

[gtohurstjudge]

Originally Posted by Alvin

Winston, where will POCI be in 5 years, or less, if your "the same gripes" are ignored? Ford or Mopar peeps gonna take up the slack? Nope.

POCI - Understood for yrs that most post POCI national events were known as "club breakers" due to a limited amount of local club peeps doing all of the prep, sponsorship, location, promotion and execution work. Then many often struggled post event.

IIRC - this is also what negatively impacted DAPA's great Southern Nats...burn out! Yes?

FWIW - always enjoyed the DAPA Southern Nats. No harm, no foul intended here.

This indeed IS a free forum...POCI is not. People vote with their feet, most never say a word...

Nor do they (or you) really need approval of for examples; your '79 403 TA or '69 GTO 'Tribute' here or elsewhere. Yours - All fine vehicles.

If you don't like mine, I don't need to pay you or your org to tell me the same - that my selections are unacceptable to some "officers". So why would I pay $ to join a group of and have self proclaimed expert(s) attempt to dominate w value, attitude, my-way-or-the-highway negatives, with MY $$$ that I mostly disagree with? Answer: I don't.

Our personal Pontiac's survive without the drama.

All your points just affirm what I said....The idea that someone in a national club
would critique your car chafes you.... you are not the Lone Ranger.....many others feel
the same way. Many so called "experts in the hobby" tend to gravitate to the national
club that has to do with their area of expertise. That is the natural order of the way
civilization works. If you didn't like POCI and you left with your "feet" then you did the right
thing. Isn't it great that nobody requires you to belong to a club to have fun with your
Pontiacs. Where will POCI be in ten or twenty years? Since all of those who care about Pontiacs will be on the wrong side of the grass by then, it will still be around but be much
much smaller,maybe 2500 members. That too is the natural order of things, just like the declining membership of a World War II Bomb Wing Association. To enjoy a club you have
to go in with the right attitude. If you don't like the point judged guys critiqueing your car,
there is a Road Warrior class at the convention where everybody just shows up with their
Pontiac with no judging. Part of people leaving POCI is just plain old "burnout" as you stated. It's hard to stay enthusiastic about something for twenty or thirty years. It just
defies human nature. Most people get bored and move on with their hobbies eventually.
Their is no "conspiracy" at POCI to make everyone get fed up and leave. Everyone in charge
of the organization is working hard to help the Pontiac faithful enjoy their cars.That I am
certain of. If Don Keefe or Jim Wangers votes with their feet then there may be a huge
problem, but I don't see that happening. Merle Green is working hard to improve POCI, just
like the presidents before him. I admire him for taking this often thankless job and I wish him well.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

All your points just affirm what I said....The idea that someone in a national club
would critique your car chafes you.... you are not the Lone Ranger.....many others feel
the same way. Many so called "experts in the hobby" tend to gravitate to the national
club that has to do with their area of expertise. That is the natural order of the way
civilization works. If you didn't like POCI and you left with your "feet" then you did the right
thing. Isn't it great that nobody requires you to belong to a club to have fun with your
Pontiacs. Where will POCI be in ten or twenty years? Since all of those who care about Pontiacs will be on the wrong side of the grass by then, it will still be around but be much
much smaller,maybe 2500 members. That too is the natural order of things, just like the declining membership of a World War II Bomb Wing Association. To enjoy a club you have
to go in with the right attitude. If you don't like the point judged guys critiqueing your car,
there is a Road Warrior class at the convention where everybody just shows up with their
Pontiac with no judging. Part of people leaving POCI is just plain old "burnout" as you stated. It's hard to stay enthusiastic about something for twenty or thirty years. It just
defies human nature. Most people get bored and move on with their hobbies eventually.
Their is no "conspiracy" at POCI to make everyone get fed up and leave. Everyone in charge
of the organization is working hard to help the Pontiac faithful enjoy their cars.That I am
certain of. If Don Keefe or Jim Wangers votes with their feet then there may be a huge
problem, but I don't see that happening. Merle Green is working hard to improve POCI, just
like the presidents before him. I admire him for taking this often thankless job and I wish him well.

My personal "Great" Pontiac memories include talking and meeting in person Pontiacers like Pete McCarthy, Steve Ames, and Jim Wangers among many others, at DAPA, TA Nats, Tour De Wangers, etc...

You wrote: "If Don Keefe or Jim Wangers votes with their feet then there may be a huge problem, but I don't see that happening."

If the future of POCI hinges on Don Keefe and (80+) Jim Wangers staying, you've pointed out the bullseye of the POCI survivalship problem. http://youtu.be/WZEJ4OJTgg8

[Don Keefe]

Originally Posted by Alvin

My personal "Great" Pontiac memories include talking and meeting in person Pontiacers like Pete McCarthy, Steve Ames, and Jim Wangers among many others, at DAPA, TA Nats, Tour De Wangers, etc...

You wrote: "If Don Keefe or Jim Wangers votes with their feet then there may be a huge problem, but I don't see that happening."

If the future of POCI hinges on Don Keefe and (80+) Jim Wangers staying, you've pointed out the bullseye of the POCI survivalship problem. http://youtu.be/WZEJ4OJTgg8

To take nothing away from Mr. Wangers, I am only 49 years old and I think I have a few good years left in me. Though I have been in the Pontiac magazine world for 25 years, I am far from all used up at this point.

Many of the problems that POCI has experienced over the years have been addressed and countered. The problem is that so many of you left so long ago, that you haven't seen the changes that have been made.

First off, our membership has been stable for the past five years, we generally stay in the 8,700 range give or take. This huge loss of membership recently hasn't happened. Yes, the numbers were over 10,000 but that was in the late 1980s.

Yes, the web site could use an update but if you are a member, there is a whole section that you haven't seen and it is not half bad. Look into it.

As editor-in-chief and art director since August of 2006, I can say that no "Aztek brainwashing" or "GMC force-feeding" is going on. I try to keep my editorials light-hearted and positive. Mostly I talk about my adventures and misadventures with my '66 Tempest and 2000 GTP. The editorial is geared to the membership and not necessarily to the entire Pontiac hobby. We don't do a lot race engine builds, or late-model coverage but we do cover a lot of features on some great cars owned by members, we cover POCI and Pontiac-related events and we do quite a bit of DIY tech stuff. Chapters activities get a lot of ink as well.

If you want hard-core engine builds, I also write for HPP so I got you covered there. As a club publication, Smoke Signals does exactly what it needs to. We redesigned it about a year ago and it won its seventh Golden Quill in a row. I am very proud of that.

Like I said before, many of the problems mentioned have nothing to do with what is going on now. Don't believe me? Just get a digital download of Smoke Signals. I believe there is a free copy available on our web site. Things have changed, it isn't perfect but let's let go of the anger about what happened 20 or 30 years ago and move on.

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

I've heard the same gripes about POCI since the mid eighties......all of the complaints in this thread are thirty five years old. Those of you who like this forum better than belonging to a club probably feel this way because in this forum there are no officers making decisions that you disapprove of.

Translation: "These problems have been here and are always going to be here and we aren't interested in hearing what you have to say or ever think about fixing them. If you don't like the way POCI is run, feel free to leave."

Message received. Enjoy your club, new members aren't that important to try and draw in.

[gtohurstjudge]

POCI has the nicest monthly magazines of all the national car clubs I belong to,
and puts on a much better convention than the Chevy and Buick clubs I belong to, as well
as offering lots of great seminars and drag racing as well and a Road Warrior class for those
who don't want to get involved with competitive judging. They have come light years from
what they offered in the 80's and still people complain That's OK, you don't have to belong
to it. It's there if you want to partake in the festivities. If not, have fun on your own. I don't
have a personal stake in this argument.....I am not an officer or director, but I am happy
with POCI and I don't think much needs "fixing" except improvements to the website....which
is not that big a deal to me. PY got the jump on POCI when it comes to Pontiac forums and
I don't see the need for two national Pontiac forums anyway. Also, recently POCI was able
to establish a national Pontiac museum in Pontiac Illinois.....I haven't seen the Buick or Chevy
clubs do that either. If you don't like POCI, vote with your feet, but I'm not going to just
sit here and say nothing when the club gets badmouthed because I think it is a great organization.

[lfdsteve]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

As a 30 year POCI member, I'd like to put in my two cents....I'll make several observations... First of all, in any organization whether it is the slide rule club in High school,
The Glee club, The Lion's Club, or POCI there is going to be politics involved. This is necessary
so that club matters get done. Someone has to make decisions in any organization and invariably there are folks who disagree with those decisions because every human being is different. Very rarely are club officers out to get anybody or make someone else's life
miserable......they are just doing their best to do their job the best way they know how.
Invariably in any club there is a small faction who hates the officers guts and who make trouble for everyone else in the organization. The motivation for the hatred could be a personality clash or just plain jealousy. The fact of the matter is that some people don't
work well with others and should not belong to a club because they don't have the personality
required to get along with others who don't share their viewpoints. The POCI officers I have
met over the years were believe it or not just trying to help the club the best way they
knew how. Just like all people shouldn't belong to a club, not all people should be in an
officer position as they don't have the personal skills for it. To those who have dropped
out, I would say that if you don't have enthusiasm for the organization, then you did yourself and the organization a favor by dropping out. I've heard the same gripes about
POCI since the mid eighties......all of the complaints in this thread are thirty five years
old. Those of you who like this forum better than belonging to a club probably feel this way
because in this forum there are no officers making decisions that you disapprove of. That's
OK for an internet forum but in the real world there are people above you in rank that have
to make decisions, a lot of which you probably won't agree with.

You just answered the question. Have your club and your declining enrollment ya arrogant prick. I will just drive my car and enjoy it.
Steve

[gtohurstjudge]

It is not "my" club. I am but one of 8500 members and a happy one
I might add. This is supposed to be an adult discussion about POCI.
I don't happen to share your view about the club and so now I'm an arrogant prick!
I'm sure any club would love to have you as a member.

[Deadhead]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

there is going to be politics involved.

......all of the complaints in this thread are thirty five years
old.

there are people above you in rank that have
to make decisions, a lot of which you probably won't agree with.

For me, this is the problem. Stipulating that there must be politics involved and that there are "people above you in rank". That is not the case. This is not a military organization. We are not going into battle. There may be those who make decisions and take action on behalf of the club, but they are not ABOVE any of the other members. The predisposition to assuming that members will not like what is decided is also unnecessary. If this were the case then there would be no organizations devoid of discontent. While I am fully aware that some people can not be satisfied, I refuse to believe that is a given for the majority.

The fact that the problems have existed for 35 years is what I would like to see addressed.

[Helge71]

As the I in POCI stands for International i would also like to chime in... I am a member since several years and will have to renew my membership now...However, I am seriously contemplating if I am really going to do so.

Being an international member the only really benefit is the monthly Smoke Signals - I enjoy having a real paper magazine to read and always find something interesting in it (in addition to the classifieds and lots of interesting vendor ads/adresses) and think that Don Keefe is doing a great job. However the quite long delay in overseas delivery is sometimes a bit annoying and my personal feeling is that the content has drifted away a bit from the (for me) very interesting tech tips and restauration stories/tips to more show coverage and show car descriptions. As it is at least very difficult for me to attend any of the POCI shows, my personal interest in a lot of show coverage is only limited. Therefore I can not really see that the "International" part of POCI offers that much benefit or interesting topic.

One of the major problems (that has already been mentioned repeatedly in this thread) is the really quite horrible and more or less dead website/forum. Especially from outside the US the internet is the easiest (only?) reasonable way to keep in touch with the club, it's memebers and join maybe some online activities. In the current situation I have contact with the POCI only once a month through the Smoke Signals, whereas I frequent the PY forum on an almost daily basis and there is always something interesting new to read or learn. So I feel much more connected to the PY than to the POCI - and the PY is even for free...

As for the GMC part - i also own an old GMC (at least with a Pontiac motor) and can not say that i ever found something in POCI or Smoke Signals that was of any help or interest to me GMC-wise. My GMC questions also get answered here at PY...

I know that the interest in Pontiacs is truly international and I know several people here in Germany and a lot in Sweden who own really great cars (more fullsize than GTOs...). However, all these people I met either on the PY forum or on another international forum for classic hot rods (and only a few at local meetings) - none so far via any POCI connections.

So maybe it might really be an idea worthwile contemplating for POCI to join up in some way with an active and established internet forum like PY - it would probably be much easier than getting some life in the so called POCI forum and would most probably give a more active and alive feeling to the whole club with more member interaction - and also attract some younger members (i am 42 - not that young anymore but still quite at home online).

Helge

[PMD1969]

The disturbing reality is that there are countless numbers of Pontiac owners out there that are reluctant to join POCI (or have quit) for the reasons listed. I personally have met/know quite a few that are Pontiac fanatics (more than 20 Pontiacs!) that will not join.

I really like Formulabruce's ideas and would quickly side in implementation. Smoke Signals is awesome but to keep the POCI thriving the website and internet/social media desperately need to be updated and maintained. I am sure there are plenty of experienced and savvy folks that would assist in getting it up to speed.

It appears that the answers are obvious.

[gtohurstjudge]

OK, you guys have convinced me that POCI sucks because they don't cowtow
to my every need and whim. I'm submitting my resignation today. Also, I don't get along
with one of my neighbors down the block so I'm putting my house up for sale as soon as
I can get a realtor on the phone. Also, the Dallas Cowboys lost last Sunday so I'll be damned
if I'm going to be a Cowboy fan anymore.....I'm tuning out! Thanks to everyone for helping
me see the light! I feel better already!

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

OK, you guys have convinced me that POCI sucks because they don't cowtow to my every need and whim. I'm submitting my resignation today.

Your attitude sucks. I was on the fence about the organization before but if this is how the people in charge feel and are willing to go out in public with this attitude, well I say I'm glad I never bothered wasting my time again.

[gtohurstjudge]

Originally Posted by Ben M.

Your attitude sucks. I was on the fence about the organization before but if this is how the people in charge feel and are willing to go out in public with this attitude, well I say I'm glad I never bothered wasting my time again.

Where did you get the notion that I speak for those in charge......I'm just a simple
peon POCI member........excuse me ex member! Folks the membership in POCI is now 8499.
What a relief to get out of that horrible excuse for a club. Thanks to all for explaining to me
that a club is lousy when it doesn't entertain me 24/7. Again, thanks for setting me straight!

[PMD1969]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

OK, you guys have convinced me that POCI sucks because they don't cowtow
to my every need and whim. I'm submitting my resignation today. Also, I don't get along
with one of my neighbors down the block so I'm putting my house up for sale as soon as
I can get a realtor on the phone. Also, the Dallas Cowboys lost last Sunday so I'll be damned
if I'm going to be a Cowboy fan anymore.....I'm tuning out! Thanks to everyone for helping
me see the light! I feel better already!

I can agree and understand trading in the CowGirls for a better team after that shalacking

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

OK, you guys have convinced me that POCI sucks because they don't cowtow
to my every need and whim. I'm submitting my resignation today. Also, I don't get along
with one of my neighbors down the block so I'm putting my house up for sale as soon as
I can get a realtor on the phone. Also, the Dallas Cowboys lost last Sunday so I'll be damned
if I'm going to be a Cowboy fan anymore.....I'm tuning out! Thanks to everyone for helping
me see the light! I feel better already!

Winston, as a lifetime diehard cowboy fan (as much as I have wanted to hate them especially when they fired landry) I have stuck by them and until this year always went to some of their home games. BUT I am so sick of jerry jones and the predictable nature of them. that this year I have found myself yelling at the tv as to what they are going to do to find a way to lose. and sure enough it seems to happen. but I am still trying to stick with them. as for poci, I have nothing against them, but it seems like after letting my membership expire I realized that I wasn't missing anything.

[GpFreak]

Originally Posted by Deadhead

For me, this is the problem. Stipulating that there must be politics involved and that there are "people above you in rank". That is not the case. This is not a military organization. We are not going into battle. There may be those who make decisions and take action on behalf of the club, but they are not ABOVE any of the other members. The predisposition to assuming that members will not like what is decided is also unnecessary. If this were the case then there would be no organizations devoid of discontent. While I am fully aware that some people can not be satisfied, I refuse to believe that is a given for the majority.

The fact that the problems have existed for 35 years is what I would like to see addressed.

I see what your problem is, it's that country you live in... the USSA, where is that anyway?

[Deadhead]

Originally Posted by GpFreak

I see what your problem is, it's that country you live in... the USSA, where is that anyway?

United Soviet States of America Sorry if you don't get the irony.

Don Bougher informs me that the deadline for submitting answers to the board questionnaire is 11/15.