[John V.]

The Champ, great scans but....

Are those from the Salesman's Catalog?

I contend they slightly misidentified the Lemans!

They depict and identify the 2237 Lemans but they call it a Hardtop Sports Coupe! The Sports Coupe is the 27 Body Style (same as depicted and identified for the Tempest Custom as a 2127).

The 37 Body Style should have been identified as the Hardtop Coupe.

Often the 2 dr. Hardtops were called a Sport Coupe (note the singular form of "Sport"), but at the outset of the '64 Model Year, the 27 Sports Coupe was offered in the 20, 21, & 22 Model Series. Shortly after Model Year intro, PMD announced the 37 Lemans Hardtop Coupe. I have seen confused designations for this Lemans Body Style elsewhere in Pontiac lit, but officially, I believe it was supposed to be simply the Hardtop Coupe.

Main weight difference between the Lemans and Tempest Custom or Tempest (20 Series) would be the Bucket Seats vs. the lighter Bench Seat.

Haven't checked the AMA specs, but the MPC shows the '64 Tempest Custom 25 lbs. heavier than the Tempest (basically the extra chrome trim I guess plus the carpeting, deluxe horn ring, and the dual horns) and then the Lemans is 20 lbs. heavier than the Tempest Custom due to the bucket seats. All as 27 Sports Coupes, all in base trim.

Hard to believe the 326 HO weighed even 25 lbs. less than a 4 bbl 389. So yeah, the HP was "worth" it.

Anybody know what the 326 HO option list price was?

I think the 2 bbl 326 was $108 on the Window Sticker. I figure the 4 bbl was at least $150.

Truth be known, I believe the GTO option was highway robbery at $295. You were paying a lot of that for the chrome engine dress up and the faux scoops on the hood. But I'm glad it happened for the history it made.

BTW, according to an engine production log with 1 month of '64 production remaining, PMD had produced right about 8000 326 HO engines (auto and man trans combined), that should tell you how rare they were. About the same no. of GTO Tri-Power engines had been produced with the vast majority of those being man trans.

[davidgto]

I bought a 65 one owner Lemans a while back that has the 4 barrel and #22 heads. I have not checked the block code. Car has never been touched or changed in any way. Never been painted or in an accident. It is a bucket console car. Is this an HO car. I have the protecto plate also. Been sitting in a building, bet you thought I was gonna say barn find, for years and I just brought it home and set it in another building until I can find some time to put it on the road unless a buyer shows up.
Is this an HO car??

dave

[John V.]

Yes, all 4 bbl 326 cars were "326 HO". They were high compression heads, premium fuel engines while the 2 bbl 326 was a regular fuel engine. They did not include any special exhaust manifolds as Pontiac did for the big motor 421 HO but you did get dual exhaust.

And if it wasn't for the GTO option, the 326 HO would have been the hot ticket for the '64/'65 A body.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by John V.

The Champ, great scans but....

Are those from the Salesman's Catalog?

They are from my Dad's 1964 Pontiac Dealer's Sales Manual.

If you check the sticky above started by wareagle - I have the entire 1964 Tempest/LeMans/GTO scans posted there.

I think the 2 bbl 326 was $108 on the Window Sticker. I figure the 4 bbl was at least $150.

Truth be known, I believe the GTO option was highway robbery at $295. You were paying a lot of that for the chrome engine dress up and the faux scoops on the hood. But I'm glad it happened for the history it made.

Well, using your "guesstimate" of about $150.00 for the HO 326, it's only $145.00 for the extra 45 HP of the 389, the chrome engine dress up, the faux scoops, the GTO badging on the doors, dash, grill, front fenders, rear quarters, deck lid, the HD suspension, bigger front sway bar, bucket seats, 14x6 wheels and 7.50x14 tires (vs the 6.50x14's).

I'd say the GTO option was a bargain...

[jtea64]

The 326 H. O. V8 4 Barrel retailed for $173.31

[John V.]

Originally Posted by chinquapalian

i can just see a 326 against a 350 Chevelle . good luck

No 350 CID for the Chevelle in '65. Pretty sure most of them got a 2 bbl 283. Others got the 4 bbl 283. You could get a 4 bbl 327 in a variety of flavors. Yes there was a Z-16 396 but production was almost non-existent and would need to be compared to the Tri-Power GTO, not the 326 HO. A Tempest 326 HO would not have been embarrassed by most 4 bbl 327s save for the special performance option L79. The L79 was not uncommon in '65 and probably a performance bargain. But I think also is more properly compared to a GTO despite the difference in cubes. IMO.

Originally Posted by jtea64

The 326 H. O. V8 4 Barrel retailed for $173.31

That's good input. Even more than I guessed and helps explain why the 326 HO was overlooked in favor of the GTO, despite........

Originally Posted by The Champ

Well, using your "guesstimate" of about $150.00 for the HO 326, it's only $145.00 for the extra 45 HP of the 389, the chrome engine dress up, the faux scoops, the GTO badging on the doors, dash, grill, front fenders, rear quarters, deck lid, the HD suspension, bigger front sway bar, bucket seats, 14x6 wheels and 7.50x14 tires (vs the 6.50x14's).

I'd say the GTO option was a bargain...

.......the fact that the additional cost for the GTO option is hard to justify in purely physical intrinsic terms.

I agree the GTO was a bargain in terms of visceral thrills. But not so much in terms of actual physical value.

Let's take a base '64 Lemans with the 326 HO and see if the GTO option was really bargain priced.

So "only" $122 more to get the 389 and the rest of the '64 GTO package. Most of that was surely for the engine even though the actual added cost was minimal. I'm not even sure there was more cast iron in the 389 block & crank vs. the 326 block & crank. But I'll figure the extra cost at $5. The larger pistons/rings cost PMD maybe $4 more for the 8, the larger valves/springs $4 extra for the 16. Cam was surely same cost no matter how they ground it but I'll allow $4 extra cost for the GTO lifters and drilled rockers. Same intake and essentially same carb for both. Same starter motor for both.

$3 extra for the std. GTO clutched fan, $2 extra for the bigger radiator and extra coolant. 50 cents for an additional qt. of oil and larger oil pan.

The chrome engine dress up stuff (valve covers, air cleaner, oil fill cap) I'll figure at $10 additional cost including extra labor to mask the valve covers.

$2.50 for the dash applique including labor. GTO dash emblem was an even trade for the Lemans dash emblem. Marginally heavier coils maybe $2 more for the 4 of 'em. Heavier stabilizer bar couldn't have cost Pontiac more than a $1.50 extra. I doubt Delco charged any different for the GTO standard shocks vs. the Lemans V8 std. shocks.

Bucket seats were std. in the Lemans.

The exterior badging was not "extra", just different. Including the front fender 326 badging vs. the GTO 6.5L badges. But I'll allow $3 extra cost for the lot. Wait, the Lemans rear qtr spears were deleted, so make that $1.50 extra cost for the lot (and not so sure this shouldn't be a cost reduction).

The faux scoops I'll figure the PMD cost at $10 for the pair including installation labor and tooling cost for the hood.

Exhaust system essentially same cost for both (I think the mufflers may have been slightly different).

The 326 got 7.00x14 tires on 5" wide wheels as std., the GTO got the 7.50x14 on 6" wide wheels.

5 of 'em in the set, I'll allow $2 each as added cost and I think that is being overly generous.

Same jack, bumpers, horns, and steering wheel. Same carpeting and other interior appointments.

Oops, almost forgot the floor shifted 3 spd. Keeping in mind that the 4 spd option cost the same for a 326 HO Lemans as for a GTO so the difference could not have been significant, I'll throw in another $10 cost for the pan cutout and shifter (parts & labor) vs. the regular column mounted shifter to be fair.

Add it all up and the GTO extras cost Pontiac $70 and that is being very generous. The rest was overhead and profit ($52).

I believe that margin was a larger percentage than on most options. And the margin on the 326 HO option was probably pretty fat as well, so the total margin on the GTO option was probably on the order of $150.

That fat margin helped PMD pay for all of the GTO advertising and promotion.

The GTO was a marketing masterpiece. If PMD had offered the 389 at a "fair" cost based price as a special equipment option in the Lemans without any unique model identification or badging perhaps it would have sold a couple hundred copies like the Z16.

The mystique of the GTO brand exceeded the intrinsic value of the parts and pieces. The value of the visceral thrills it gave to a generation just coming of age far exceeded the price for the option.

That is why I think it was a bargain.

Soon after I had fallen for the '64 GTO as a new driver, I loved reading the retrospective article David E. Davis, Jr. penned for the Jan. '75 Car & Driver. He compared the intros of the Mustang and GTO.

"....the GTO appeared on the American scene like a Methodist minister leaving a massage parlor".

But the most memorable line in the article to me was "....I remember only that the first Mustang I drove caused me to cut my finger on an exposed sheetmetal edge in the trunk, while my first ride in a GTO left me with a feeling like losing my virginity, going into combat and tasting my first draft beer all in about seven seconds."

That about summed it up for me. The GTO option may have been overpriced for what it included. But for how a GTO made you feel, the price was truly a bargain.

Of course, at 18, I only paid $150 for a one owner '64 GTO convertible. That really was a bargain.

The 326 HO lacks the mystique of the GTO and I contend sold in low nos. precisely because the GTO option only added another $4/month to the typical 36 month car loan at that time.

But I still think a 326 HO is cool to see today.

A LOT cooler than a 283 equipped Chevelle.