[charlie66]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

I recommend the SD Performance 342 cfm heads along with his modded victor intake using their modded 72cc chamber to what ever compression you want to run.
Bigger cam on a 112 LSA.
Dominator is a must if you plan on 10 flat or quicker. I recommend Pro systems and tell him your combo.
Gear and converter are a must. Call PTC. They work right out of the box!! You can run around a progressive 200 shot with a N/A converter but can start blowing thru it depending on the design.
Same with gearing and rpms N/A as compared to quicker ET's and nitrous.
Open up the wall clearance for bigger shot. Same deal on the rings. More gap in your second rings too. Napier 2nd with lower oil ring tension.

If your gonna try more then 250 hp with std Ross pistons. Coated the tops ad use the nitrous type top rings.

Going from my 330 cfm heads to 342 cfm , what will that be worth for power?

Are you suggesting a 112 lsa for nitrous, or is it good for n/a too?

I have to ask a stupid question. If I were to raise the stall does this mean it gets looser too. Or can it be raised and still stay tight?

[Probird]

There should be a lot left with those heads. Mine flow 327 @ .700 lift. In my stock block, 4.21 stroke, 4.16 bore, and 100 lbs less than you are now I went 9.62 @ 138. 280/284 cam. 8" convertor with 5500 stall. 4.33 gear and shifting at 6800.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Going from my 330 cfm heads to 342 cfm, what will that be worth for power?

Are you suggesting a 112 lsa for nitrous, or is it good for n/a too?

I have to ask a stupid question. If I were to raise the stall does this mean it gets looser too. Or can it be raised and still stay tight?

Yes. Head flow and Pontiacs leave a lot to be desired. When a simple 350 chevy head outflows a 455 pontiac head?
Yes I have seen major changes in power just in 10/15 cfm if it's proportional thru the lift curve.

112 allows pump gas, vacuuum and those longer LSA with nitrous are a thing of the past. 112 isn't even close to a nitrous LSA You can control your rpm range and hp curve with CL advance.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Probird

There should be a lot left with those heads. Mine flow 327 @ .700 lift. In my stock block, 4.21 stroke, 4.16 bore, and 100 lbs less than you are now I went 9.62 @ 138. 280/284 cam. 8" convertor with 5500 stall. 4.33 gear and shifting at 6800.

Is that a 30 over 455?

If I could get my car to run those numbers on motor with this motor I would be real happy..


What was your compression ratio and cam lift?

Thank you for telling me this, I was thinking my heads were the problem...

The .020 degrees difference in cam shafts , What would you think it might be worth in power? Just a guess....

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Yes. Head flow and Pontiacs leave a lot to be desired. When a simple 350 chevy head outflows a 455 pontiac head?
Yes I have seen major changes in power just in 10/15 cfm if it's proportional thru the lift curve.

112 allows pump gas, vacuuum and those longer LSA with nitrous are a thing of the past. 112 isn't even close to a nitrous LSA You can control your rpm range and hp curve with CL advance.

I wish I understood the cam part of your answer better.

I do get the cfm part about the heads.

Thanks...

[Probird]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Is that a 30 over 455?

If I could get my car to run those numbers on motor with this motor I would be real happy..


What was your compression ratio and cam lift?

Thank you for telling me this, I was thinking my heads were the problem...

The .020 degrees difference in cam shafts , What would you think it might be worth in power? Just a guess....

It's actually a .030 over 428 block with a 455 crank. So it's basically a .010 over 455....459 ci. Compression ratio is 11.25 to 1. My heads are 76cc's.

I'm going to guess maybe a tenth or two. Years ago I gained 2 tenths switching to an 8" convertor from a 10", same stall (4800). And I gained 2 tenths switching from a th400 to a Powerglide. It's all in the combination of parts that go along with the engine. I think you will gain some also if you also switch to E-85.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by charlie66

I wish I understood the cam part of your answer better.

I do get the cfm part about the heads.

Thanks...

https://sites.google.com/site/ksmsin...nfo-timing-101

[screamingchief]

Originally Posted by charlie66

That's a good point you make about the rings. I'm not a nos guy. Never was. So when I built the motor I filed the rings for n/a gaps. But I've been through 3 bottles so far. 1 bottle was with a 210 shot and had no problems. Lol.

Need to keep a close eye on it,from the get-go you should've established "known good" cranking compression and leakdown numbers to help in keeping an eye on the ring sealing and such,that's just good SOP if you ask me.

Also would help if this has a vacuum pump to keep an eye on how many in/hg that is pulling too.

If anything like that starts going south,then it's time to watch your @ss!

Oil + nitrous = bad things,simple as that.

Nitrous use can cause the plasma moly coating to flake off the rings eventually,when that happens it loses ring seal and positive oil control,and when that happens it's gonna detonate,and it wont be long for this world anymore.

Usually with a 125-150 shot it's NBD till a sh!t ton of bottles has been run thru it,but the more one ups the hp of the shot,the sooner that can happen.

So yeah for more nitrous,I'd run a ductile iron top ring,and agree with Pdude that the napier 2nd. is pretty much SOP these days too,though I'd likely stay with a std. tension oil ring myself.

And yeah,a more nitrous friendly cam would be quite a bit different than what you got now.

Converter for sure would be different too.

But I agree there is more NA power left on the table as well.

But this is a point where NA & nitrous start taking differing paths to optimze a given combo.

In other words,you may give up a little NA performance to optimize the combo for heavier nitrous useage,as when it's on the hose,it'll more than make up for that slight loss of NA power.

Anyhow,you're getting lots of food for thought here,take your time to sift thru it all and figuring out a game plan to get what you are looking for with this.

Either way you choose to go,good luck with it.

Bret P.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Probird

It's actually a .030 over 428 block with a 455 crank. So it's basically a .010 over 455....459 ci. Compression ratio is 11.25 to 1. My heads are 76cc's.

I'm going to guess maybe a tenth or two. Years ago I gained 2 tenths switching to an 8" convertor from a 10", same stall (4800). And I gained 2 tenths switching from a th400 to a Powerglide. It's all in the combination of parts that go along with the engine. I think you will gain some also if you also switch to E-85.

Sounds like you went through your growth spurts too. Is this the motor that's in the video you have in your sig? I thought of going e85 but never got to it... I like being able to stop at any gas station..

I think I might try making the extra hp with the cam . The nitrous is starting to sound like the wrong way go now...

What lift are you at?

Thanks for all your advice...

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

https://sites.google.com/site/ksmsin...nfo-timing-101

Thanks Dude...

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by screamingchief

Need to keep a close eye on it,from the get-go you should've established "known good" cranking compression and leakdown numbers to help in keeping an eye on the ring sealing and such,that's just good SOP if you ask me.

Also would help if this has a vacuum pump to keep an eye on how many in/hg that is pulling too.

If anything like that starts going south,then it's time to watch your @ss!

Oil + nitrous = bad things,simple as that.

Nitrous use can cause the plasma moly coating to flake off the rings eventually,when that happens it loses ring seal and positive oil control,and when that happens it's gonna detonate,and it wont be long for this world anymore.

Usually with a 125-150 shot it's NBD till a sh!t ton of bottles has been run thru it,but the more one ups the hp of the shot,the sooner that can happen.

So yeah for more nitrous,I'd run a ductile iron top ring,and agree with Pdude that the napier 2nd. is pretty much SOP these days too,though I'd likely stay with a std. tension oil ring myself.

And yeah,a more nitrous friendly cam would be quite a bit different than what you got now.

Converter for sure would be different too.

But I agree there is more NA power left on the table as well.

But this is a point where NA & nitrous start taking differing paths to optimze a given combo.

In other words,you may give up a little NA performance to optimize the combo for heavier nitrous useage,as when it's on the hose,it'll more than make up for that slight loss of NA power.

Anyhow,you're getting lots of food for thought here,take your time to sift thru it all and figuring out a game plan to get what you are looking for with this.

Either way you choose to go,good luck with it.

Bret P.

You're scaring me with all this blowing up stuff! Lol.

This whole nitrous thing started because I was lazy and wanted some quick hp. I have a few friends that busted my b@lls so I did it. I built the lower end back in 2005. So from the sound of what you're saying I think I'll move back to the original mind set, N/A.

I don't remember what rings I installed. I do think they were molly though. Maybe sealed power?

So how are you with choosing cams. lol.

I guess I'll have to figure out what cam to go with and follow up with the right converter..

After this I guess i'll be getting A IA2 an doing it right.. But for now i'll go through learning with what I have in the car now.

Thanks for all your insight on this... Its very much appreciated..

[Probird]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Sounds like you went through your growth spurts too. Is this the motor that's in the video you have in your sig? I thought of going e85 but never got to it... I like being able to stop at any gas station..

I think I might try making the extra hp with the cam . The nitrous is starting to sound like the wrong way go now...

What lift are you at?

Thanks for all your advice...

Yep, it was in there in that video. It's sitting on the stand right now getting ready to get put back together for a spare.

Yep, a lot of growing spurts over the last 22 years I've owned it. It started at 11.44 and I've gotten it to run 9.38 best so far. I'm running the same cam in my 525 engine as I did in the 459". The lift with 1.6 rockers is .704 before lash.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Probird

Yep, it was in there in that video. It's sitting on the stand right now getting ready to get put back together for a spare.

Yep, a lot of growing spurts over the last 22 years I've owned it. It started at 11.44 and I've gotten it to run 9.38 best so far. I'm running the same cam in my 525 engine as I did in the 459". The lift with 1.6 rockers is .704 before lash.

Sounds like your car evolved in a positive way, I hope I can do the same...

Good luck racing in 2014 . I always liked watching your car run... Gotta Love them wheel stands you do...

[screamingchief]

Originally Posted by charlie66

You're scaring me with all this blowing up stuff! Lol.

This whole nitrous thing started because I was lazy and wanted some quick hp. I have a few friends that busted my b@lls so I did it. I built the lower end back in 2005. So from the sound of what you're saying I think I'll move back to the original mind set, N/A.

I don't remember what rings I installed. I do think they were molly though. Maybe sealed power?

So how are you with choosing cams. lol.

I guess I'll have to figure out what cam to go with and follow up with the right converter..

After this I guess i'll be getting A IA2 an doing it right.. But for now i'll go through learning with what I have in the car now.

Thanks for all your insight on this... Its very much appreciated..

My goal was'nt to scare you,my main point was to maybe advise you to not get too greedy w/o the proper parts in place,that's all.

It's just waaayyy too easy to throw some bigger jets in there and "let it eat",I was just triyng to help you avoid having it eat itself up,that's all.

As for cams,everyone has their favorites,would help us to see some of the flow numbers if @ all possible to give the best cam recommendations.

Cams are all about compromises.

There are a few things you can try w/the current cam to give an idea which direction to go:

Reduce (tighten) the lash,if it picks up slightly,that indicates it wants more cam.

Advance/retard the ICL,if advancing the ICL picks it up,that suggests it wants a smaller cam,and if it picks up via retarding the ICL,that suggests it wants a larger cam.

And playing with rocker ratios can also indicate such,and experimenting with different ratios on the intake and exhaust cam also help give an indication of what sorta I2E split the combo may favor as well.

But mind you,all that can be a lotta work and track time just to figure out what you may already know.

And I'm sure there something to be had with another converter,be it NA or nitrous.

Bret P.

[blueghoast]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Yes , all guys are helping a great deal and I want to thank everyone for there input so far..

Do you have any time slips or dyno numbers?

Could you share your cam spec's? If not I understand..

I'll get the specs for ya in a day or so.

GT.

[blueghoast]

Originally Posted by grandville455

seriously 12.1? and pump fuel wow! You running the eldys too?

Yep 72cc eddies, Like I said my LSA is 113.

GT.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by screamingchief

My goal was'nt to scare you,my main point was to maybe advise you to not get too greedy w/o the proper parts in place,that's all.

It's just waaayyy too easy to throw some bigger jets in there and "let it eat",I was just triyng to help you avoid having it eat itself up,that's all.

As for cams,everyone has their favorites,would help us to see some of the flow numbers if @ all possible to give the best cam recommendations.

Cams are all about compromises.

There are a few things you can try w/the current cam to give an idea which direction to go:

Reduce (tighten) the lash,if it picks up slightly,that indicates it wants more cam.

Advance/retard the ICL,if advancing the ICL picks it up,that suggests it wants a smaller cam,and if it picks up via retarding the ICL,that suggests it wants a larger cam.

And playing with rocker ratios can also indicate such,and experimenting with different ratios on the intake and exhaust cam also help give an indication of what sorta I2E split the combo may favor as well.

But mind you,all that can be a lotta work and track time just to figure out what you may already know.

And I'm sure there something to be had with another converter,be it NA or nitrous.

Bret P.

I know you weren't trying to scare me Bret. I was half joking around, and also realizing you were right at the same time. I never thought about monitoring it with compression tests. That's a good idea.
Thank You...

And I know what you mean about being easy to put a bigger jet in. Ha ha...

See, I don't like the whole idea behind having an extra solenoid to purge. I feel better purging in the plenum. So I just hold the rpms up and tap the button until I feel its enough. So one day I had a 150 in and I was hitting the button and it sounded real weak ( Yes it was a full bottle) So I had a bunch of friends over and they were teasing me saying it was weak. So they talked me into reflowing it and put a 210 in. So we did. I couldn't believe the difference. It went from a lazy rev to a bark. So needless to say , I understand how easy it is to get into trouble because after that I was wondering what a 250 shot would sound like. lol...



As for advancing or retarding my cam I think I'm confident enough to go bigger. Like Probird said , he is .020 @ .050 larger then my cam and has .045 more lift with the same compression and head flow as mine. I know he has a glide and a higher stall but I would bet his motor is making more power.. I will try to tighten up the lash and see if it picks up. The problem is , the closest track from me is 5 hours away. So would a chassis dyno do for now?

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by blueghoast

I'll get the specs for ya in a day or so.

GT.

Cool.

Thank You...

[BruceWilkie]

Charlie if you decide on a cam change DONT go with any preconceived notion it has to be on "x" lobe or intake centerlines.

Cams are NOT designed from an LSA viewpoint! If your cam grinder insists they are, shop elsewhere!

LSA's and ICL's are COINCIDENCES of lobe timing events. Whatever the timing events that best match your combo determine what the LSA ends up as and the ICL is a point to check to install it where it was intended. LSA and ICL are best utilized for cam checking/inspection and installation.

Lobe timings, net timings at the valve itself, amount of net valve lift, rate of net lift are what affect how your combo will behave.

Many companies have good lobe designs... get the right lobes and timing events that best match YOUR combo. I'm pretty impressed with the guy that does Mike Leeches cams...So are others!

I do my own and no longer have time to help others. The guys at Bullet are pretty sharp with Pontiac stuff... and have some very good Harold Brookshire designed lobes in their arsenal. Comp also has some great lobes. Dont rule out LSM. That doesnt mean you have to use them directly.

Whoever you choose, you need to have all your combo's details at hand and any planned changes and open to changes that may be needed to meet your goals.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Charlie if you decide on a cam change DONT go with any preconceived notion it has to be on "x" lobe or intake centerlines.

Cams are NOT designed from an LSA viewpoint! If your cam grinder insists they are, shop elsewhere!

LSA's and ICL's are COINCIDENCES of lobe timing events. Whatever the timing events that best match your combo determine what the LSA ends up as and the ICL is a point to check to install it where it was intended. LSA and ICL are best utilized for cam checking/inspection and installation.

Lobe timings, net timings at the valve itself, amount of net valve lift, rate of net lift are what affect how your combo will behave.

Many companies have good lobe designs... get the right lobes and timing events that best match YOUR combo. I'm pretty impressed with the guy that does Mike Leeches cams...So are others!

I do my own and no longer have time to help others. The guys at Bullet are pretty sharp with Pontiac stuff... and have some very good Harold Brookshire designed lobes in their arsenal. Comp also has some great lobes. Dont rule out LSM. That doesnt mean you have to use them directly.

Whoever you choose, you need to have all your combo's details at hand and any planned changes and open to changes that may be needed to meet your goals.

I don't really have the understanding of cams down as you do. I cant really say I got everything you just said , but , I can say , I know they ground me a not so aggressive lob for reliability. I did use Bullet for the cam. Tim G, set me up. When I changed cams I told him I didn't want to change my converter, so that's why I think there is more there, How much extra is there, I don't know...

Yeah, I agree , Mike has a very impressive car. Who does he use? Is it top secret? Ha ha..

I bet he could set me straight...