[BADDTA]

^^^^^^^thats neither here nor there.

Brian

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by BADDTA

^^^^^^^thats neither here nor there.

Brian

Agree! (Thanks for the jump in moment)
Throw CV's, tigers, high ports,, warp6, raV on same motor, same turbos, and still achieve same power. Variances in boost at same power or some difference in power at a fixed boost psi is what you would see ! Seems foolish to think that because no one else has tried, that it can't be done

Mr Paul's comment IMPLYING that NA E-heads have done same or better as Mr Fulton's cv1 combo is questionable if not totally misleading. I know of NO OTHER NA combo making 1100 HP AT SAME COMPRESSION . (Let alone not cammed for NA application)
All NA combos I'm aware of exceeding 1100 hp using other heads run well over 14:1 compression and are cammed for NA at higher rpm as well.

Mr Paul, have you got examples to show I'm wrong?
BTW what's your highest HP Pontiac NA build from YOUR shop?

[chiefbigb]

I hope after all this that both partys show up and get past this. Im sure Jack will be there and will have the best setup possible with the testing he has done to that point. I drove one of my guys cars a few weeks ago that runs 6.20s in the 1/8th mile. I was in the low 6.40s. He could have sat in it and run .2 faster than me the next pass. Track time is everything.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Agree! (Thanks for the jump in moment)
Throw CV's, tigers, high ports,, warp6, raV on same motor, same turbos, and still achieve same power. Variances in boost at same power or some difference in power at a fixed boost psi is what you would see ! Seems foolish to think that because no one else has tried, that it can't be done

Mr Paul's comment IMPLYING that NA E-heads have done same or better as Mr Fulton's cv1 combo is questionable if not totally misleading. I know of NO OTHER NA combo making 1100 HP AT SAME COMPRESSION . (Let alone not cammed for NA application)
All NA combos I'm aware of exceeding 1100 hp using other heads run well over 14:1 compression and are cammed for NA at higher rpm as well.

Mr Paul, have you got examples to show I'm wrong?
BTW what's your highest HP Pontiac NA build from YOUR shop?

We made 980hp (Pontiac) naturally aspirated on a budget, but we have never done an unlimited budget Pontiac build. We specialize in very fast street/strip engines. However our heads and intake have run as fast a 6.8 @ 204 mph on a traditional Buick V-8 with standard push rod location ( once again a budget engine) and we are planning on going faster this year.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

We made 980hp (Pontiac) naturally aspirated on a budget, but we have never done an unlimited budget Pontiac build.

Fultons combo is NOT unlimited budget! More money than a street strip car? Sure, but no way unlimited budget.

We specialize in very fast street/strip engines. However our heads and intake have run as fast a 6.8 @ 204 mph on a traditional Buick V-8 with standard push rod location ( once again a budget engine) and we are planning on going faster this year.

At what weight and CI is this Buick? Is it NA? How is this relevant to a Pontiac discussion?
Do you specialize in port development or are you just another machinist with a die grinder porting heads and intakes?
I'm honest enough to say even I can make improvements with a die grinder and sand rolls but NO WAY am I a head porter nor am I claiming I could out do your work.

1100 HP NA Pontiac as a nitrous build(with the n2o off) compared against an NA Pontiac build with same ci or larger with over 3 points more compression is splitting hairs??? Really??? Cam timing events totally unfavorable to optimum NA requirements, manifolding, headers etc.. Really???

Just maybe you ought to find out who else uses the dyno Dick uses. Maybe you want to find out who witnessed results. Maybe find out what Dicks track reults were with his E-heads compared to numbers from same dyno. Others results from same dyno.

Its OK for you to tell us a dyno number, but somehow anything from the CV camp is a lie?

Dont get me wrong, not diminishing anyones Pontiac 1100+ hp NA build(not many regardless of head choice and they benefit all of us eventually), nor am I out to diminish your customers results.

I do however look at what an entire build is and judge it accordingly. They are all the sum of what they are.

To suggest nearly 4 points compression and same or greater cubes at higher rpm is "splitting hairs" is about as misleading as it gets.

Its as if you are assuming the average reader in this forum isnt smart enough to see the difference or know that a power adder motor is a completely different build than an NA combo.

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Fultons combo is NOT unlimited budget! More money than a street strip car? Sure, but no way unlimited budget.



At what weight and CI is this Buick? Is it NA? How is this relevant to a Pontiac discussion?
Do you specialize in port development or are you just another machinist with a die grinder porting heads and intakes?
I'm honest enough to say even I can make improvements with a die grinder and sand rolls but NO WAY am I a head porter nor am I claiming I could out do your work.

1100 HP NA Pontiac as a nitrous build(with the n2o off) compared against an NA Pontiac build with same ci or larger with over 3 points more compression is splitting hairs??? Really??? Cam timing events totally unfavorable to optimum NA requirements, manifolding, headers etc.. Really???

Just maybe you ought to find out who else uses the dyno Dick uses. Maybe you want to find out who witnessed results. Maybe find out what Dicks track reults were with his E-heads compared to numbers from same dyno. Others results from same dyno.

Its OK for you to tell us a dyno number, but somehow anything from the CV camp is a lie?

Dont get me wrong, not diminishing anyones Pontiac 1100+ hp NA build(not many regardless of head choice and they benefit all of us eventually), nor am I out to diminish your customers results.

I do however look at what an entire build is and judge it accordingly. They are all the sum of what they are.

To suggest nearly 4 points compression and same or greater cubes at higher rpm is "splitting hairs" is about as misleading as it gets.

Its as if you are assuming the average reader in this forum isnt smart enough to see the difference or know that a power adder motor is a completely different build than an NA combo.

... ...

[twinturrbo406]

... just a nice pic update ...

[Motor Daddy]

Originally Posted by twinturrbo406

... just a nice pic update ...

Sweet!!

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Fultons combo is NOT unlimited budget! More money than a street strip car? Sure, but no way unlimited budget.

NEVER said it was!

At what weight and CI is this Buick? Is it NA? How is this relevant to a Pontiac discussion?

It's irrelevant, so I don't know why you would ask.

Do you specialize in port development or are you just another machinist with a die grinder porting heads and intakes?

We specialized in head porting until we started building complete engines about twelve years ago. Now we specialize in both!

I'm honest enough to say even I can make improvements with a die grinder and sand rolls but NO WAY am I a head porter nor am I claiming I could out do your work.

Please start a thread telling us about all your accomplishments.

1100 HP NA Pontiac as a nitrous build(with the n2o off) compared against an NA Pontiac build with same ci or larger with over 3 points more compression is splitting hairs??? Really??? Cam timing events totally unfavorable to optimum NA requirements, manifolding, headers etc.. Really???

It seems like you are making the comparisons.

Just maybe you ought to find out who else uses the dyno Dick uses. Maybe you want to find out who witnessed results. Maybe find out what Dicks track reults were with his E-heads compared to numbers from same dyno. Others results from same dyno.

Why, is there something wrong with the calibration?

Its OK for you to tell us a dyno number, but somehow anything from the CV camp is a lie?

I never doubted ANY dyno numbers.

Dont get me wrong, not diminishing anyones Pontiac 1100+ hp NA build(not many regardless of head choice and they benefit all of us eventually), nor am I out to diminish your customers results.

I don't care.

I do however look at what an entire build is and judge it accordingly. They are all the sum of what they are.

You should be open minded.

To suggest nearly 4 points compression and same or greater cubes at higher rpm is "splitting hairs" is about as misleading as it gets.

I stand by my original statement "all the builds are winners".

Its as if you are assuming the average reader in this forum isnt smart enough to see the difference or know that a power adder motor is a completely different build than an NA combo

I don't have time to assume what other people think.

I hope this helps.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Fultons combo is NOT unlimited budget! More money than a street strip car? Sure, but no way unlimited budget.



At what weight and CI is this Buick? Is it NA? How is this relevant to a Pontiac discussion?
Do you specialize in port development or are you just another machinist with a die grinder porting heads and intakes?
I'm honest enough to say even I can make improvements with a die grinder and sand rolls but NO WAY am I a head porter nor am I claiming I could out do your work.

1100 HP NA Pontiac as a nitrous build(with the n2o off) compared against an NA Pontiac build with same ci or larger with over 3 points more compression is splitting hairs??? Really??? Cam timing events totally unfavorable to optimum NA requirements, manifolding, headers etc.. Really???

Just maybe you ought to find out who else uses the dyno Dick uses. Maybe you want to find out who witnessed results. Maybe find out what Dicks track reults were with his E-heads compared to numbers from same dyno. Others results from same dyno.

Its OK for you to tell us a dyno number, but somehow anything from the CV camp is a lie?

Dont get me wrong, not diminishing anyones Pontiac 1100+ hp NA build(not many regardless of head choice and they benefit all of us eventually), nor am I out to diminish your customers results.

I do however look at what an entire build is and judge it accordingly. They are all the sum of what they are.

To suggest nearly 4 points compression and same or greater cubes at higher rpm is "splitting hairs" is about as misleading as it gets.

Its as if you are assuming the average reader in this forum isnt smart enough to see the difference or know that a power adder motor is a completely different build than an NA combo.

Write this in the dust on your dash. If i went n20 single carb........1130hp. Youre over estimating the differences effect on power.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by mike leech

Write this in the dust on your dash. If i went n20 single carb........1130hp. Youre over estimating the differences effect on power.

1st your NA motor is above average. You've had doubters and non believers. Few if any from our "camp". Certainly not me. IN FACT I'm certain few know about the prominent "ehttfmf'rs" who behind the view of this forum were mad, jealous or outright indignant about what you, John and rest of team accomplished! (Welcome to our world)

I wonder how many here realize or are aware you could find 30 or more HP if you were willing to go after it.. (no small task)

2nd to your comment. What assumed load of N2O would you eventually plan to be adding to your base of 1130? Do either of us know if the DF LJ race is only a test/tune for future plans??? I don't have that info. I do suspect Dick and Bill haven't built a grenade and are leaving plenty of reserve for the future.

I'll stand by my previous comment.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

1st your NA motor is above average. You've had doubters and non believers. Few if any from our "camp". Certainly not me. IN FACT I'm certain few know about the prominent "ehttfmf'rs" who behind the view of this forum were mad, jealous or outright indignant about what you, John and rest of team accomplished! (Welcome to our world)

I wonder how many here realize or are aware you could find 30 or more HP if you were willing to go after it.. (no small task)

2nd to your comment. What assumed load of N2O would you eventually plan to be adding to your base of 1130? Do either of us know if the DF LJ race is only a test/tune for future plans??? I don't have that info. I do suspect Dick and Bill haven't built a grenade and are leaving plenty of reserve for the future.

I'll stand by my previous comment.

Ok. I see your point. My comment was more for the unlimited budget. There is no such thing. Sure some have more to spend. Others refuse to spend and save. Whatever. Parts are parts as far as cost goes. Sum of the parts does not guarantee any outcome. Be it big hp or grenade proof.

Both engines made GOOD power. One side saying billet heads make the other "max effort unlimited budget" while that same side has multiple "experts" contributing expertise and multiple dyno sessions sounds a little silly to me.

And Jack should buy a gearset just saying.