[MikeNoun]

The build sheet posted by Tim (Judge Registry) shows a 01-09 build. The earliest I have seen is an 01-04 build from Fremont.

Recently I found some internal documents at the Pontiac Museum, and asked Tim Dye if it was ok to discuss here.

Internal memos show they produced 1000 pattern cars in Carousel Red.

1969 Judge Production
--------------------------
January production = 849
February production = 1,288
March production = 1,765
April production = 1,095
May production = 808

The above figures include Canadian and export shipments.

April production dropped from March due to a hold on Ram Air engines to correct a durability problem. By early May, they estimated that 3,000 Judges had actually been sold, with 1,500 in dealer stock. May production dropped over April due to the issue with the Ram Air engines, coupled with a strike.

The build-out schedule for June 1969 was 759 units, and for July 1969 they scheduled 272 units. The July figure included anticipated August production at Baltimore and Lakewood.

Mike

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

The build sheet posted by Tim (Judge Registry) shows a 01-09 build. The earliest I have seen is an 01-04 build from Fremont.

Recently I found some internal documents at the Pontiac Museum, and asked Tim Dye if it was ok to discuss here.

Internal memos show they produced 1000 pattern cars in Carousel Red.

Thanks, Mike. Can the internal memos be scanned for us to see or be placed on the internet somewhere? Posting them at the Judge Registry might be nice if all are ok with that.

Is there other known internal documentation for the Judge?

just a note--I believe that build sheets are generally not found for the Baltimore Judges so I don't believe we will ever nail down the first day of production or the first Judge made.

[MikeNoun]

I cleared this with Tim, and he said this one was ok to post. There is a lot more information to follow, and will be released as it becomes available.

Mike

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

I cleared this with Tim, and he said this one was ok to post. There is a lot more information to follow, and will be released as it becomes available.

Mike

WOW
Many grateful thanks to Mike and Tim for sharing this stuff with us here.

I like how we / they - both call them Pattern Cars

So now we can wonder - did 1,000 units become transposed into 2,000 units
as time went on ? Do we rewrite or edit all comments on here regarding "The First 2,000" ?

I am thinking that may have been a typo /error / oversight ... perhaps . possibly . maybe
idunno

They show 849 units built in January , which at least 99.5 - 99.8 % would have been Pattern Cars.

We also know the Pattern Builds continued up until 3rd week of February.
They show 1288 units for full month of Feb.
849 + 1288 = 2137

But we also know not every single Judge in February was a Pattern Car.

So ... whether or not 2,000 is 100% accurate - i think it is closer than the 1,000
written in the memo.

Some of the memo may be "generalized" from the shoulder as it was written on May 8 . It reads more like a quick brief progress report. Saying that because it is Odd it has the paragraph titled :Purpose:

5634 + 434 = 6068
not 6081
weird again
idunno

I think production beginning in Mid January is pretty accurate though.

The 1B Fremont Judge with Build Sheet mentioned - was not built on January 4th.
Jan 4 was its "proposed" build date when they finally thought they were going to start building these cars.
I have copy of it also, but no one has the PHS Invoice for it... yet.
It does have the lowest VIN (113xxx) of any Fremont Judge i know of though.

The Judge program met several delays, they were supposed to be out on the streets by Jan 1 ... originally.

The dates on the build sheets are the proposed build date.
Doesn't always , if ever , work out on that date.
1B body date tells us it didn't build out on Jan 4.

Very Very Very Doubtful the Framingham car in question was built out on Jan 9.
But can say another thing about it that has not been mentioned yet ... it has the earliest Ship Date from Zone Storage Lot than any other Pattern Judge , so far.
Jan 30
But that really means nothing overall. Just a tidbit factoid.
Have another Framingham Judge with 125xxx - but 1C body build date.
1B car has body number FM 056607 from build sheet - if that matters.

Jan 23 was the early Non-Pattern (pattern-plus a few more opts) Canadian car from Baltimore Plant. This was probably the 1st car built. imho

Jan 31 was the Non-Pattern Bob Longpre California car from Fremont Plant. 115xxx
(have no less than 2 other Fremont Judges with much lower VIN - 113xxx and 114xxx)

Most all others were held at Zone Lots until Feb 5th and later.

1B body date cars are the early birds.
Which one came off the line first - who knows.
Which plant started first - who knows for sure.
I think it was Baltimore, with Fremont right behind. pure speculation

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

As far as
= How do the Order Numbers fit against the Pattern Cars =
It has never had a complete definition.
I have tried many variable scenarios in the past and only gotten headaches.

Mike's release of Tim Dye's document opens another door that seems to be the way out - maybe ...

Looks to (possibly) be the running total for the build week of that finish plant.
(not necessarily in any alignment with body build date weeks / date codes)

On Invoices , they are always (usually) 000xx.
I have instances of plants with same number used over again.
I have instances of different plants with the same 000xx number.
It has never taken me anywhere, except to the aspirin cabinet.

At one time it looked like maybe it was going to be a code for a certain combo.
Such as 4 speed with Parchment, 4 speed with Black, etc ...
Nope

Since it was asked - I will say - I have Car Order Number 00017 from Fremont (matching the Order Number of the Framingham subject car) and it is also Auto with Parchment. Some of them hit like that, most don't.
I have some 00021's that some are 4spd Black and some 4spd Parchment.

But I have Order Numbers from 00017 to 00076 and lots of in-betweens.

The oddest quirk though is the before mentioned 1B Fremont Auto with 113xxx VIN.
The buildsheet shows it as Order Number 000143.
It is the only one i can find with 3 numerics along with the zeros.
I think maybe the 3 was a fat finger digit , and it would be 00014 on the Invoice.
Otherwise 142 preceded it that week. Seems too many

Can't ever do anything with these Pattern Cars without at least 1 oddball anymore .

The only thing we absolutely know for sure about the 000xx Order Numbers is they tell us it is a Pattern Car. Has been a nice "quick check factoid" on Invoices in the past.

Will take a larger data base of Patterns than what I have , to firmly secure the idea that the 000xx represents a running build total for the week for that respective plant. But it does hold water so far with what i can compare against.

Just bothers me that I don't have, nor can recall, any single digit Order Numbers.
Such as 00002 or 00008

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Short Sample on 000xx Order Numbers

Two Baltimore Pattern Judges
Both 1C Body Dates
Both TT / 58 / 4spd (identical twins)

About 350 VIN's apart

B1544xx = 00045 Order Number
B1548xx = 00051 Order Number

This weekly running total theory seems the best potential definition so far.

[johnta1]

Here's what I have for Baltimore:

b151xxx
pattern Judge #21
2/13/69 (shipped date on PHS)

b156xxx
pattern Judge #39
2/17/69

b158xxx
pattern Judge #40
2/26/69

b1xxxxx
pattern Judge # 51
2/5/69

b156xxx
pattern Judge #54 (64? blurry on PHS)
2/21/69

[johnta1]

The one from Allen Pontiac?

It is in order.
The numbers go left to right then down.

[johnta1]

Possibly you're in the other thread, which has a 70 Judge?

It is 1st because the code is 332 for the Judge option?

Loaded Judge

[johnta1]

Found a couple more Baltimore:
(added some info BVZ may like)

b155954
pattern Judge #35
2/10/69

TT 58 4sp zba477926

b156063
pattern Judge #42
2/26/69

TT 58 4sp zba526801

b1xxxxx
pattern Judge #77
2/17/69

TT 58 4sp zba498528

[johnta1]

And 3 #17 Judges:

a119xxx
pattern Judge #17
3/04/69

TT 57 Auto zaa544425
----------------------

g125xxx
pattern Judge #17
1/30/69

TT 57 Auto zga453185
----------------------

z114xxx
pattern Judge #17
2/05/69

TT 57 Auto zza468236?
-----------------------

Just noticed they are all Parchment and Automatic.

[johnta1]

And a number above 2 digits:

z115xxx
pattern Judge #103
2/19/69

TT 58 4sp zzb508840

[judger69]

Originally Posted by johnta1

And a number above 2 digits:

z115xxx
pattern Judge #103
2/19/69

TT 58 4sp zzb508840

I have some info on this pattern Judge Dealer Order #00103 car z1155xx:

This car has a 01D cowl tag (I have a pic of it).

Freemont 58 4spd. zzb508840

Shipped to zone lot # 24 991 on Feb. 19, and sold to a dealership in California on March 11.

BVZ hope this doesn't aggravate your headache.

Is that a normal spread from the cowl tag 01D to the ship date Feb. 19?

[johnta1]

One question in regards to the buildsheet posted.

Sorry was looking at a ton of PHS'



The buildsheet probably has it at the top because it is showing the stripe/decal color I think?

[johnta1]

Also appears to be a Framington thing.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Also appears to be a Framington thing.

Yep.
I have 4-5 Framingham 69 Judge B-Sheets
All of them are done that same way.