[g68mike]

lol ok, so we don't know for sure this left the factory without the original engine like Orejudge suggested?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I thought he was sort of joking about that. lol

Ram3 Auto A/C non-Posi more than likely still had its #'s drivetrain intact when O'Donnell sold it to someone.

They only put 3 months / 3000 miles on these cars - whichever came first.
Unless noted otherwise (Over 3 Months or Over 6 Months etc...) - when they were used/sold in this manner.

Full warranty included.

Ore did suggest it is completely Non-Matching #'s now.
So thought he just sorta threw all that together tongue in cheek or sumpn.

IF something went haywire during use, they would have put another new duplicate engine in the car before it left PMD. Or destroyed the car.
Whichever made more sense depending on car condition overall.

This car could/should actually be called "Test Car # 0339"
But any testing it might have done, would have been more mundane.
Maybe it was tested for MPG or potential electrical conflicts.
More of that nature, if any at all.

Sometimes things fall under an umbrella for the bean counters etc.
It looks more like a brass hat's Eldorado on the Invoice, than a Test Car.

[g68mike]

the reason I was asking I have "heard" stories over the years of a couple original pep cars/dealer rep or whatever with engines being couple hundred #'s later from the dash vin. With the vin being so close, they would have been from a car from the next day or two of production. I always thought they were untrue, of all the cars out there how could a couple different people find a block so close and done so long ago, what are the odds. But if it was done at the factory, why wouldn't they just crush it, why would they sell it?? Or was it installed on accident and just went un-noticed?? Do you think they would have grabbed the next available engine with a vin already stamped into it and installed it on the line and not had access to a SR block?
Just curious if any one else had heard anything like this?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

There have been a number of original engine cars found with 1 digit wrong in the holder when stamped.

Depending where that digit stands in the line up - determines whether it was Singles off, Tens off, Hundreds off, Thousands off .... etc..
But they had only 1 digit wrong.

And i think a few cases of 2 digits being criss-crossed with each other.
That can make a varying degree of difference.

I'm not sure if any of them were ever factory rides though.

Those other stories - I would rather buy a cup of coffee before I would buy the story.
And I don't drink coffee.

Just to be more clear , this car was at PMD Motherland Defacto , Engineering/Development - every day during its use. It could have gotten anything it needed the very same day. A block, a short block, a complete engine ... new carpet, new seat... anything. Same day.
They wouldn't have put any wacky jack replacements on the car.
That was my insinuation.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Bad news , sorta.

Tried to dig up some info earlier about this deal but got tired of looking.
Dug some more and found what I needed this time.

If anyone is bidding on this Test Car
Figure in more than a replacement rivet
It needs a whole new trim tag, and rivets.

Pontiac built with P135xxx VIN would be more in the range of late Sept - early Oct 1969 time frame.
09D , 09E, 10A range

04C Pontiac built (current trim tag) would be VIN range of P240xxx

Probably a clapped out parted out car that got "put back together" after they found the buildsheet or sent in for PHS. So no telling how much is missing and incorrect.
Do your homework and legwork first.

P137xxx was early'ish-October 1969

P240xxx was mid-late April 1970

bummer

Change Alert wasn't the interior color going to Blue.
It was to Alert folks 45 years later to watch the hell out !

[orejudge]

Thanks for clearing that up on the engineering development ,guess thats how rumors start, last owner stated it was a 455 car from{ engine deviation} thats why there are experts here. I sure am glad I ran the other way. After all the looking I never noticed the build date did not line up WOW.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Replacement trim tags with correct rivets are only in the $300-500 range these days.
1970 Pontiac plant would be about the easiest one to replicate.
So that issue is probably one of the smallest issues it faces.

How did the VIN plate and its rosette rivets look ? if you can recall

How well put together / restored is the car overall ?

Were all the options present and working order ?

It has a cool pedigree and killer option content with a nice color combo.
But its not a "the sky is the limit" type car to keep dumping huge coin into it
to get it right.

If the original build sheet were present, AND it was tagged to a recognizable name in history, it could make a little more value exist. But only a degree.
If the frame has been out, the tank likely has been too.
And B-sheet prospect already up in smoke.

[orejudge]

Resto older and not high quality,drivers door had some issues in the jamb area, previous accident. Dont recal rivets so cant answer that.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by orejudge

- ...and no vin on frame
- ... last owner stated it was a 455 car from{ engine deviation}.

Not to get anyone confused about any engine deviation misinterpretations again -
but this car [possibly] could have been a 455 RA Auto Judge.

They would appear the same on the invoice as a Ram3 Auto
It was a no cost alternate and was available from start of 70 model production.
Only 17 produced. Only 1 documented.

The frame would have a different part number / plant code.
Block would have been a YA code this early.
And a 12 bolt rear.

I got to thinking about all the options, and it being a cruiser,
and how cool it would be for it to have been a 455 RA car too.
And then realized .... it actually could have been one.

Did you find ANY numbers on the frame at all ?
Did it have a YA/64 engine or 12 bolt rear ?

The publicity ads had a statement about the 455 to the effect of pushing the 455 on higher option cars. Forgot the exact wording.

[Lloyd-TX]

Sure appears to be a re-body. Thanks to BVZ for all the great detective work and information. Could save someone from making an expensive error . . .

Shame too, for a nice color Judge with all those options, and the engineering car pedigree!

[orejudge]

I did not think to look at the frame date or numbers. Did not have a 12 bolt.

[Wakepowell]

The discussion on the thread has been interesting and enlightening. The two main reasons I initiated this thread were the trim tag date/vin # and how late the car was sold to the public. Has anyone seen a Pontiac sold nearly eight months after the model year ended?

My Judge was built in October and not sold to the public until July which I thought was a long time, but still within the model year (barely).

[johnta1]

It is basically because it sat/used at the zone office.
Then when it finally was sold to a dealer/customer was when the 'shipped to' date is recorded on PHS.

Do you have the PHS/Build Sheet for your car?

Possibly same thing?

There were a lot of TA's in 1969 that sat forever on the lot or in zone lots.
If the price is too high and it's getting closer to the next model year, most people wait for the new cars.

Kind of the same with the Judges with the price being pretty high compared to regular cars, some may not be sold without some kind of discount?

These weren't 'collectible' back when new.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Wakepowell

The discussion on the thread has been interesting and enlightening. The two main reasons I initiated this thread were the trim tag date/vin # and how late the car was sold to the public. Has anyone seen a Pontiac sold nearly eight months after the model year ended?

My Judge was built in October and not sold to the public until July which I thought was a long time, but still within the model year (barely).

My 72 WW5 GTO was built in December and not invoiced until September.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

My specialty is these wacky kooky oddball invoices and multi-invoice cars.

Have probably over a dozen or more on file that didn't go to a final selling dealer until into the following model Sales year.

And at quick flip , no less than half a dozen that didn't go to a final selling dealer until into the next Calendar year. Ranging from Feb to June of the following Calendar year.

The more extreme examples are just about always some form of Internal Use and range from Hard-Loaded to Mega-Loaded.

The procedures they go through can vary, and the time frames can vary.

Generally though -
By the time one goes to sealed bidding (an otherwise As New Car) it has already been offered at 30% Discount for a while - then 35% Discount for a while.
In some cases the 1st round of bidding may not produce any bids depending on the minimum bid amount requisite - when applied.

Its not complicated, but takes some typing to cover most all the bases.
4 months from New -usually- before one can even be had, as a starting point.
From there the clock keeps ticking.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Just reminded myself there was also a 40% Discount stage too.
So there's another leg to add onto the journey on some of these cars.

Most will go at the 30% or 35% Discount stage.

70 GTO Vert Company Car - sensibly/moderately equipped performance wise -
Burgandy/Black/Black WT 4spd 3.90 - no extravagant options.
Only $4200 Retail

Built in Mid May 70
Sold March 20 1971
40% Discount

[edit - my mistake, it was a 4.33 rear axle Code 37S on the Pontiac Plant Buildsheet. oops]
Likely played a bigger part of the slow sale action.

[Keith Seymore]

It seems to me we need a brief discussion about the different categories of company vehicle types:

PEP vehicles (company vehicles assigned for general transportation based on rank or level of authority) are the ones that adhere to the 3 month or 3000 mile rotation period. They are not to be modified in any way; they are regular plated and are assigned to an individual (by name) during their company ownership.

Test/Development vehicles do not ascribe to that same time period. They are kept for as long as needed, until used up, or until they "age out" and need to be replaced by a newer vehicle. That can be as long as a couple model years. They are intended to reside at Milford (or the DPG) or the engineering building and technically are not supposed to be used for general transporation, but could be if "normal driving" is part of the evaluation. They are typically M plated but there can be a few regular plated vehicles in the development fleet.* They are also intended to be cut up and experimented with, although ideally they can be returned to production intent and sold or auctioned at the end of their run. If they are too far gone they are "expensed" (written off the books) and are kept around as a junker or scrapped.

Test/development vehicles are assigned to the development fleet via an authorization code (or to the fleet coordinator) and are available to anyone to "check out" for use in their own development project or as a group on a vehicle ride trip (either on property or off property). The fleet only has a certain number of auth codes available which is why vehicles will time out and need to be replaced. That's also why "expensed" vehicles are kept around even though they could be scrapped: they are another car available for use but don't appear on the books.

Test/development vehicles are typically loaded with content for the legitimate engineering reason that you would like to test all the interactions between options, both electrically and physically. Also, if you find out during the model year that you have a problem in the field with some obscure option your chances are better of finding one to work with already existing in the fleet if you loaded them up in the first place. That saves time in terms of having to order a specific vehicle and wait for it to be built or scour the local dealerships for a vehcle with that particular option.

PEP vehicles are typically loaded with content...well...because management folks like cushy rides, and they are not paying for it.

K

*M plated vehicles are also not supposed to be used for general transportation. Legitimate M plate usage consists of (a) transporting the vehicle from one location to another, or (b) active testing on public roadways. Usage and transfer of plates between vehicles is logged and kept in the fleet office in the event that the Michigan Secretary of State (our version of the DMV) would like to review it.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Test/development vehicles are typically loaded with content for the legitimate engineering reason that you would like to test all the interactions between options.

PEP vehicles are typically loaded with content...well...because management folks like cushy rides, and they are not paying for it.

One other thought:

Test vehicles are typically contented and ordered by the fleet coordinator.

Individual drivers were allowed to content and order their own PEP vehicles when I first became a company car driver, but the policy was changed at some point and vehicles were ordered by some third party and randomly assigned (being weighted towards your product line of responsibilty but not 100%). The motivation for this change, I was told, was driven by an interpretation of an IRS requirement to make it look less like an outright "benefit" and more like a legitimate business expense. The mileage/time in service also got adjusted over a period of years as the corporation tried to fine tune their investment or based on workload in the company car garage (if they get backed up doing vehicle swaps then you could stay in a car longer) but the 3 month/3000 mile interval is most famous.

Employees can "tag" and buy used company vehicles in a couple ways. You can choose a development vehicle that is coming out of service and buy that at a discount. Or - you can order a specific vehicle and options, have it driven as a company vehicle (either by you if you are a driver or by someone else if you are not) and then buy it when the assigned miles or timeframe is achieved. Stacking the discounts (Option 1 aka "Class 'A'") plus the mileage discount plus "past model" - if you can get it - can result in substantial savings. You had to retain the vehicle for a certain length of time when purchasing in that way; the retention period also was adjusted over the years as the policy evolved.

K

[johnta1]

What would you say the reason was for this vehicle being so far apart date wise?

I take it, it would be a 'PEP' vehicle also?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by johnta1

What would you say the reason was for this vehicle being so far apart date wise?

I take it, it would be a 'PEP' vehicle also?

I doubt it was PEP, since I don't think those would receive the Eng/Dev designation.

If it was truly a development/test car then there is no standard timing to apply.

I agree with BVZ that the zone designation was simply part of the path it took to get to the selling dealer, not an indication that a zone offical drove it.

K