[Steve C.]

Interesting...

Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, a vehicle manufacturer or dealer cannot discriminate against after-market filters that meet or exceed OEM standards. All System 1 filters exceed standards. Proper use of our filters will not void your warranty.

Here noted 30 micron, primarily recommended for 0- to 50-weight oil.

http://www.system1filters.com/oilfilters.htm

But then many often do not put too much faith in manufacturer specs.


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[HWYSTR455]

I use AC Delco PF24 filters, got a deal on a case, think I paid like $2.35 ea, maybe less (it's been a while). I have 3 cars, all that use the same filter, so it makes sense. AC rates this filter at 25-30 micron filtration level, so it's very comparable to others.

I've seen a lot of folks run the SYSTEM1 filters, and they seem to never have had issues with them, so suspect they are a quality piece. They have to 30 & 45 micron units, and being serviceable, makes them a cost effective solution/option.

I contemplated the Professional Products unit for some time, especially when there were talks that the PF24 filter was getting difficult to find or rumored to be discontinued. There too I heard those using them have not had any issues with them. They are rated at 45 microns, and are $80, much less than others on the market, making it a cost effective solution/option.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pf...w/make/pontiac

Only issue I see with extended interval oil changes is contamination from 'liquid' contaminants, or the breakdown/effectiveness of additives in the oil. No filter regardless of how small a particle it traps is going to filter or correct those conditions. The oil can look perfectly 'clean', and still suffer from those conditions.

I'm on 5000 mile oil change intervals on all of my cars, unless there is some specific reason to change it. For example, a hung float. That would warrant an oil change. Common sense. Just like an overheating, dictates an oil change.

I'm never going back to a HFT cam either, so seriously considering synthetic-based oils. The additive packages in those tend to last longer, for one.

In a properly prepared engine, you can get 240+k miles out of it, with a top-end (valve job) rebuild at like 120k. I abuse my engines, and usually do a disassembly around 120k, inspect, and generally go a bore size up, just as a precautionary measure. I'm not really seeing any reason to reduce my oil change intervals to 1 or 2 in that amount of miles. Yeah, I understand the costs, but over the period of time I drive that engine, and how I drive, I'll keep to the intervals and standard filters I've familiar with. Call me stubborn.

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[HWYSTR455]

"Some years ago, a study was done on oil filters that uncovered the Fram filter farce. They named AC Delco’s filter to be one of the better models. Later, AC Delco changed their design and went to a cheaper setup made by an offshore manufacturer. Even so, I definitely recommend this filter over the design of any Fram filter. In fact, I even recommend it over the low-end Wix and I (personally) prefer it over the Purolators.

The filter cartridge has a large outside diameter with deep pleats, which gives the filter element the maximum flow possible. At first glance, it appears to have little filter element media, but the surface area measure was suprising: 315 sqin. The unit had a solid top end cap because the bypass valve is at the bottom, which is a well-constructed spring-loaded steel with a nitrile seal design. The nitrile rubber diaphram-type anti-drainback valve doubles as the seal between the bypass valve and the cartridge. The only drawback to this design is that the bypass valve seats metal-to-metal against the backplate. This could allow oil from the clean side of the filter to seep back into the oil pan, but it won't allow the dirty oil in the filter to seep back. Oil that is in the main gallery usually leaks out through the main bearings anyway while the engine sits. This is a better alternative to the high-end Wix, which can allow oil to seep from the dirty side of the filter to the clean side. "

"...Here are the low-cost filters that I feel safe using, based on all this information (in alphabetical order): AC Delco, Purolator, and Wix...."

http://www.austincc.edu/wkibbe/oilfilterstudy.htm


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[flyingn]

That was many years ago (13 years ago)and the new Frams are much better. I still would trust the orange can Frams but the Fram Ultras are the very best filters you can buy.

http://ca.fram.framautogroup.com/sit...ltra_alpha.png

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

"Some years ago, a study was done on oil filters that uncovered the Fram filter farce. They named AC Delco’s filter to be one of the better models. Later, AC Delco changed their design and went to a cheaper setup made by an offshore manufacturer. Even so, I definitely recommend this filter over the design of any Fram filter. In fact, I even recommend it over the low-end Wix and I (personally) prefer it over the Purolators.

The filter cartridge has a large outside diameter with deep pleats, which gives the filter element the maximum flow possible. At first glance, it appears to have little filter element media, but the surface area measure was suprising: 315 sqin. The unit had a solid top end cap because the bypass valve is at the bottom, which is a well-constructed spring-loaded steel with a nitrile seal design. The nitrile rubber diaphram-type anti-drainback valve doubles as the seal between the bypass valve and the cartridge. The only drawback to this design is that the bypass valve seats metal-to-metal against the backplate. This could allow oil from the clean side of the filter to seep back into the oil pan, but it won't allow the dirty oil in the filter to seep back. Oil that is in the main gallery usually leaks out through the main bearings anyway while the engine sits. This is a better alternative to the high-end Wix, which can allow oil to seep from the dirty side of the filter to the clean side. "

"...Here are the low-cost filters that I feel safe using, based on all this information (in alphabetical order): AC Delco, Purolator, and Wix...."

http://www.austincc.edu/wkibbe/oilfilterstudy.htm


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[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Only issue I see with extended interval oil changes is contamination from 'liquid' contaminants, or the breakdown/effectiveness of additives in the oil. No filter regardless of how small a particle it traps is going to filter or correct those conditions. The oil can look perfectly 'clean', and still suffer from those conditions. .

From Blackstone labs about the much better efficiency of by pass filtering over full flow inline filtering. Also addressing the topic of extended oil changes and peoples phobia about not getting "bad" oil out of their engines. Bad oil is dirty oil that regular oil filters cannot keep clean because of their design, it is still plenty capable of lubricating, but the contaminants that are left in it are also causing wear on critical surfaces in the engine as they re-circulate:

We receive many oil samples from clients who don't understand what is required to run unusually long oil use intervals in their engines. The accumulation of wear metals, blow-by materials, and oil oxidation products in their oils is alarming. It has been our experience that one cannot simply add oil of a particular brand or base stock and expect it will be useful for an extended period of time, lubricating, cleaning, and cooling as required. Oil that becomes contaminated needs to be changed promptly. In our opinion, there are no magic oils or additives.

There are, however, auxiliary systems you can add to your engine's lubricating system that will keep the oil clean enough to use over an extended period of time. By-pass filtration units are the most common system used for this purpose.
In-line oil filtration, which comes installed on your engine from the factory, filters oil entering the engine down to roughly 30-40 microns (millionths of a meter). This is about as finely as in-line filtration can filter, because when the oil is cold or the filter is partially plugged, a finer filter would cause too great a pressure drop, forcing open the filter by-pass valve and allowing unfiltered oil to circulate through the engine.

By-pass filtration works differently. When this type of auxiliary system is installed, some of the sump oil by-passes the in-line filter system, passing continually though a by-pass filter and then returning to the oil sump. Using this method, sump oil is constantly being cleaned any time the engine is running, and it can be filtered down to a very fine size. All you have to do to maintain the system is occasionally change the by-pass filter.

Not only do the by-pass filtration units cleanse the sump oil of blow-by and oxidation products, they also reduce wear metals and silicon accumulations, both of which are abrasive. Oil does not wear out. Its usefulness is limited by contamination. By-pass filtration removes most of the contaminants.

How long can an oil fill be run using by-pass filtration? We've heard claims of large (Class 8) diesels going 1,000,000 miles on the same fill of oil with no harm done to the engines. We have analyzed oils which have been in service 240,000 miles and found nothing unusual in the analysis, other than higher than average iron and lead (from steel parts and bearings), and these wear accumulations were not intolerably high.

After having run many tens of thousands of diesel engine oil samples, it is our opinion that a by-pass oil filtration system is one of the most important factors in extending oil drains. If you are interested in extended oil drains, we suggest you investigate adding this type of system to your engine.

One other thing that hasn't been addressed much is the total efficiency of a filter. It may filter to 40 microns but if it's 90% efficient 10% of the particulate is still getting through. Ideally filters in the 98-99% efficiency area are about the best out there.

As suggested by the article by Blackstone, if your only using a full flow filter your throwing your oil away very prematurely simply because of the design of the inline filter limitations it cannot keep it clean.

My own test with my 6.5 TD of 25,000 miles with regular Shell 15W-40 Rotella and 4 + years on the oil has proven to me that it does not just appear clean, it actually is clean, and able to safely carry out all the duties fresh oil is capable of.

What all comes down to, is no matter whose name is on the side of a full flow can, the design is very inefficient. There is no magic can filter that is anywhere near as efficient at keeping oil clean solely because of the design limitations. Filtering oil down to even 20 microns (Very unusual in a full flow filter) is still leaving a bunch of damaging/wear causing particulate re-circulating through your engine. As has been cited the 5-10 micron contaminants cause the majority of wear. No can filter even addresses those. The industry says at 5-6,000 miles, or sooner under extreme conditions, you need to throw the contaminated oil away because the small abrasive bits are getting more dense because the can filter has no way of removing them. The more concentrated they become the more they are wearing engine parts.

Now if you have a by pass filtration system from day one they are getting removed from your oil. Not recirculating and causing wear, not depleting oil additives, they are not building up because they are getting filtered out on the first pass through the by pass filter. It's black and white, apples to oranges, there is no comparison to a compromised design full flow filter and a dedicated 100% by pass filter. From the get go, they are different animals, one is a compromised design that must under all circumstances must keep oil at the internally lubed parts, while the other is a dedicated design that has only one duty. It has to clean the oil 100% to a very high standard slowly (compared to a full flow design) and return it to the sump. No condition that it must meet to keep lube to the internal parts no matter if it's clean or bypassed totally by the filter, no bypass valve.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

From Blackstone labs about the much better efficiency of by pass filtering over full flow inline filtering. Also addressing the topic of extended oil changes and peoples phobia about not getting "bad" oil out of their engines. Bad oil is dirty oil that regular oil filters cannot keep clean because of their design, it is still plenty capable of lubricating, but the contaminants that are left in it are also causing wear on critical surfaces in the engine as they re-circulate:

I'm not talking about hard particles, in size, or amount, that I understand, I'm talking about raw gas, maybe antifreeze when a head gasket goes, fluid contaminants, that are not heavy particles. You can have 20 filters in a row and it won't separate that from the 'good' oil, even if all the heavy particles are removed. You can get raw fuel contaminates from just ring blow by too.

All that 'fluff' that came from Blackstone is just that, fluff, because they avoided talking about fluid contaminants. If you look at the wording, it's intentional.

"We have analyzed oils which have been in service 240,000 miles and found nothing unusual in the analysis, other than higher than average iron and lead (from steel parts and bearings), and these wear accumulations were not intolerably high."

Iron and lead? Why isn't that filtered out? And what exactly is 'intolerably high' ?

Anyway, I'm not arguing the fact that more filtration is good, and I'm sure it has an impact on how long oil can be used. All I'm saying is that there is contaminates that can't be filtered out by a filter, because the contaminate is a fluid. That would require some type of separation type system.

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