[Dave Bisschop]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

^^^^Truth^^^^ and I agree. A lot of money being spent for average results

Really, please lay out some of these iron headed flat tappet combo's that are being bolted together by your average enthusiast and running sub 11.50's first time out in 3800+lb cars that have plenty of vac. at idle for power brakes and run on 91 octane. Not saying this kind of performance can't be accomplished with iron heads and a flat tappet as we've done it ourselves but the combo's are much less street friendly for your average owner.



Formula8, FYI we have dozens of customers running the hybrid setup like you are doing with zero issues using the Crane 99893 springs installed at 1.780-1.800".

Overall the hyd. roller set-ups have been very reliable and 95+% of the ones we've sold (well over a thousand at this point) are using Comp cams hyd. roller lifters and the 99893 springs and out of those we've had some issues with about 2-3% of the lifters. We have customers with tens of thousands of miles on their set-ups with no issues.

I'm all for having some extra spring pressure for a little more insurance especially for those running the solid roller lifters and turning higher rpm (above 6000), but having 200 on the seat and 600 open on a 245/252 .400" lobe lift cam is overkill. For years and about 500 passes (same set of Comp Cams 859 lifters) we ran a 279/283 @ .050" .650" lift solid roller in our 413ci iron headed engine in our 65 GTO with 200lbs on the seat and 575lbs open pressure going through the traps at 7500-7600rpm with no valve float issues, the lifters never failed and were put in a street motor when we sold the car.

Way more spring pressure than required not only eats up power it also puts more strain on valve train parts and cam bearings so while I always prefer to have a little extra, having way too much isn't the way to go either.

We use beehive springs on occasion and P-dude has a great set-up that he's proven to work very well, but at the end of the day I'm always looking at the most cost effective way to do things while maintaining long term reliability. For most of the hyd. roller combo's we do we've had nothing but success with using the 99893 springs and chrome moly retainers, we can certainly set-up customers heads using the same springs and retainers P-dude uses but there's a $400.00+ extra cost involved. There are some cheaper beehive springs available as well but we've seen some reliability issues with some of them so I just prefer a dual spring personally. quoting Steve C. this is a very good reason why "I've been fortunate over the last 20 years or so. I've only had one instance with a solid roller application that almost led to issues... I broke the inner coil on a dual valve spring and limped home."
If he would have had a beehive or single spring fail it would have led to catastrophic engine failure.

We do a lot of CNC porting and head machining work on LS heads for other shops in our area and what's interesting is that they are typically removing the beehives and going with a dual spring as they get into larger cams

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Dave Bisschop

Really, please lay out some of these iron headed flat tappet combo's that are being bolted together by your average enthusiast and running sub 11.50's first time out in 3800+lb cars that have plenty of vac. at idle for power brakes and run on 91 octane. Not saying this kind of performance can't be accomplished with iron heads and a flat tappet as we've done it ourselves but the combo's are much less street friendly for your average owner.

I assume this is a rhetorical question since you seemed to answer this in the last sentence of your paragraph above.

[Dave Bisschop]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

I assume this is a rhetorical question since you seemed to answer this in the last sentence of your paragraph above.

Not rhetorical at all as I stated the combo's are much less street friendly in comparison. What are good street manners? Ask 10 different people you'll probably get 10 different answers. Car set up is a HUGE factor on track performance. I had a customer (unfortunately passed away last fall) who raced a 77 bird in stock eliminator with a legal 350 Pontiac, stock heads (no porting at all) stock intake (no mods) less than 9 to 1 compression, stock .364" lift cam and the car ran a best of 11.27 @ 117mph 3500ish lbs, what do you think would happen if you put that engine in a typical street car? It would no doubt run way slower. The car was dialed in.

By your statement about people spending a lot of money and getting average results basically says that you feel I don't give people good value for their money. I take that personally as I've dedicated my life to the Pontiac Performance hobby and I'm certainly not getting rich doing what I do but I enjoy it and its my hobby too and the customer feedback I get keeps me motivated to do it till the day I die. My motto from day one was to provide my customers with proven products that do what they are supposed to do in the most cost effective way I can find and not require a whole bunch of tuning etc. to get respectable performance out of their cars. This is a never ending pursuit.

I feel some of the statements that have been made are misleading, I really doubt ta man is going to go faster bolting on a set of ported iron heads and a sliding in a flat tappet hyd. cam with everything else in his combo staying the same and running on 87 octane.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Dave Bisschop

Not rhetorical at all as I stated the combo's are much less street friendly in comparison. What are good street manners? Ask 10 different people you'll probably get 10 different answers. Car set up is a HUGE factor on track performance. I had a customer (unfortunately passed away last fall) who raced a 77 bird in stock eliminator with a legal 350 Pontiac, stock heads (no porting at all) stock intake (no mods) less than 9 to 1 compression, stock .364" lift cam and the car ran a best of 11.27 @ 117mph 3500ish lbs, what do you think would happen if you put that engine in a typical street car? It would no doubt run way slower. The car was dialed in.

By your statement about people spending a lot of money and getting average results basically says that you feel I don't give people good value for their money. I take that personally as I've dedicated my life to the Pontiac Performance hobby and I'm certainly not getting rich doing what I do but I enjoy it and its my hobby too and the customer feedback I get keeps me motivated to do it till the day I die. My motto from day one was to provide my customers with proven products that do what they are supposed to do in the most cost effective way I can find and not require a whole bunch of tuning etc. to get respectable performance out of their cars. This is a never ending pursuit.

I feel some of the statements that have been made are misleading, I really doubt ta man is going to go faster bolting on a set of ported iron heads and a sliding in a flat tappet hyd. cam with everything else in his combo staying the same and running on 87 octane.

Thanks for clearing that up. By no means am I referring to you, your business or your ability. I reread the "qoute" and see how/why you would take it personally. I am referring to the hydraulic roller cam / aluminum D-port combinations in general. From my past experiences I see nothing impressive about bolting on a set of ported aluminum heads and a hydraulic roller cam and running mid elevens (let alone spending a lot of time playing with valve springs and putting solid rollers on a HR cam) I thought it was a good idea to "raise the bar" and have the Pontiac community be challenged to maybe run better. There has been a lot of bashing of the 041 and ported 6X combinations on this site over the years and they ran solid elevens.
I disagree with your thought there aren't streetable iron d-port combinations that can run mid elevens. I can't believe your 260 cfm CNC iron d-ports with a good HFT would not be able to run in the mid elevens.
Again it's nothing aimed personally towards you or your shop, I feel your head combinations offer a lot of bang for the buck.

[ta man]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Thanks for clearing that up. By no means am I referring to you, your business or your ability. I reread the "qoute" and see how/why you would take it personally. I am referring to the hydraulic roller cam / aluminum D-port combinations in general. From my past experiences I see nothing impressive about bolting on a set of ported aluminum heads and a hydraulic roller cam and running mid elevens (let alone spending a lot of time playing with valve springs and putting solid rollers on a HR cam) I thought it was a good idea to "raise the bar" and have the Pontiac community be challenged to maybe run better. There has been a lot of bashing of the 041 and ported 6X combinations on this site over the years and they ran solid elevens.
I disagree with your thought there aren't streetable iron d-port combinations that can run mid elevens. I can't believe your 260 cfm CNC iron d-ports with a good HFT would not be able to run in the mid elevens.
Again it's nothing aimed personally towards you or your shop, I feel your head combinations offer a lot of bang for the buck.

Its much much easier to run mid 11's and more common with Aluminum d ports and hyd rollers.Not many can duplicate Jim Hands performance..with cast iron d ports and a 041 cam...but his car was beyond dialed in..

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by ta man

Its much much easier to run mid 11's and more common with Aluminum d ports and hyd rollers.Not many can duplicate Jim Hands performance..with cast iron d ports and a 041 cam...but his car was beyond dialed in..

It is just like modern technology golf clubs. They new tech allows the below average player to play above average.

The tools that Dave is offering allows the average Joe to put a combo together with a recipe with very repeatable results.**

** assuming attention to the details are followed.

As noted above, I also don't need to be pioneer, I don't have the funds to try 10 different cams and 5 different sets of lifters. I WOULD be willing to give a set of hyd roller lifters a try vs the hybrid.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by ta man

Its much much easier to run mid 11's and more common with Aluminum d ports and hyd rollers.Not many can duplicate Jim Hands performance..with cast iron d ports and a 041 cam...but his car was beyond dialed in..

Your car is dialed in pretty good and I would bet you will figure out how to make it faster. Your car's performance is an excellent example of what happens when you are "never satisfied"... I believe Jim H. shared that attitude and never gave up searching for ways to make his vehicle faster... if he wold have continued racing he probably would be in the ten's by now...using iron d-ports and a HFT with Rhoades lifters!

[ta man]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Your car is dialed in pretty good and I would bet you will figure out how to make it faster. Your car's performance is an excellent example of what happens when you are "never satisfied"... I believe Jim H. shared that attitude and never gave up searching for ways to make his vehicle faster... if he wold have continued racing he probably would be in the ten's by now...using iron d-ports and a HFT with Rhoades lifters!

Yes..it is all the little things that add up....one of my biggest pet peeves is"Its only worth half a tenth..if that"..drives me crazy..

[ta man]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Your car is dialed in pretty good and I would bet you will figure out how to make it faster. Your car's performance is an excellent example of what happens when you are "never satisfied"... I believe Jim H. shared that attitude and never gave up searching for ways to make his vehicle faster... if he wold have continued racing he probably would be in the ten's by now...using iron d-ports and a HFT with Rhoades lifters!

The key is faster and keeping it comfortable on the street.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Your car is dialed in pretty good and I would bet you will figure out how to make it faster. Your car's performance is an excellent example of what happens when you are "never satisfied"... I believe Jim H. shared that attitude and never gave up searching for ways to make his vehicle faster... if he wold have continued racing he probably would be in the ten's by now...using iron d-ports and a HFT with Rhoades lifters!

LOL, I agree! Jim was still tinkering with his combo right up to time he decided to become less active in his hobby!

[i82much]

Originally Posted by ta man

Its much much easier to run mid 11's and more common with Aluminum d ports and hyd rollers.Not many can duplicate Jim Hands performance..with cast iron d ports and a 041 cam...but his car was beyond dialed in..

yeah most guys with iron heads and hft are in the 12s. most guys with roller and aluminum heads are in the 11s. i see a lot of value in the roller/aluminum route especially if, like most of us, you have some time constraints.

[Dave Bisschop]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Thanks for clearing that up. By no means am I referring to you, your business or your ability. I reread the "qoute" and see how/why you would take it personally. I am referring to the hydraulic roller cam / aluminum D-port combinations in general. From my past experiences I see nothing impressive about bolting on a set of ported aluminum heads and a hydraulic roller cam and running mid elevens (let alone spending a lot of time playing with valve springs and putting solid rollers on a HR cam) I thought it was a good idea to "raise the bar" and have the Pontiac community be challenged to maybe run better. There has been a lot of bashing of the 041 and ported 6X combinations on this site over the years and they ran solid elevens.
I disagree with your thought there aren't streetable iron d-port combinations that can run mid elevens. I can't believe your 260 cfm CNC iron d-ports with a good HFT would not be able to run in the mid elevens.
Again it's nothing aimed personally towards you or your shop, I feel your head combinations offer a lot of bang for the buck.

Paul I have dozens of customers bolt the combo together with hyd. roller lifters and not mess with anything. I personally prefer to run hyd. roller lifters vs. the hybrid set up. One customer comes to mind from last year, he built his own 461 short block with a Butler rotating assembly, I supplied a set of my 300-305cfm KRE D-ports, CNC runner ported Torker II, complete OF cam kit with 857 lifters and a Pro Systems 950HP carb, he bolted the top end on, set the total timing at 31 deg and headed to the track in his 68 bird (PS,PB etc. stock weight car) TKO 600, 3.42 gear. First time out laid down a 11.38 @ 123mph, never lifted the hood to change a jet or turned a screw on the carb. Is there more there? Hell yah but he hadn't planned to put a roll bar in the car. While there are no doubt 041 iron headed combo's out there running in the 11's there are a ton that have missed the mark too. I'm all for challenging the Pontiac community to raise the bar, but not everyone is looking to get every ounce out of their combo or have the resources and/or time to spend on their car to get to a certain goal, they just want something to buy as a package that is proven to work, those enthusiasts are a big part of my client base and I tend to listen to what they are looking for.

I'm sure you must get plenty of calls and e-mails from people who've read some mag article (not saying this is the case with all articles) or listened to 10 peoples advice and put a "montage" combo together and it was a complete turd!! Now they are seeking your advice on why it's a turd. It's those types of situations I try to help people avoid as it's hard enough to spend the money once let alone twice.

When it comes to the iron head HFT street combo's I hear what you are saying and I don't disagree completely, the point I was trying to make is that it's far easier to have an extremely docile street/strip combo that is quick with ported aluminum heads and a hyd. roller cam. Again it comes down to the individuals definition of "streetable". Marcel had a 271/278 dur. @ .050" Ultradyne solid roller in his 468 and to him it was perfectly streetable, to me it was a little much, but part of that is me thinking about all the internal parts of an engine as I'm driving down the road!!LOL

I don't have much time to spend posting on these BB's, but one thing that I think happens often (I'm guilty) is its very easy to misunderstand a point someone is trying to make compared to having a discussion face to face. I have a lot of respect for what you have done and are doing in the hobby and I've always been impressed with Brian's (Slowbird) and his family's cars, but I think it's fair to say that each of these cars has evolved and improved over time.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by Dave Bisschop

Really, please lay out some of these iron headed flat tappet combo's that are being bolted together by your average enthusiast and running sub 11.50's first time out in 3800+lb cars that have plenty of vac. at idle for power brakes and run on 91 octane. Not saying this kind of performance can't be accomplished with iron heads and a flat tappet as we've done it ourselves but the combo's are much less street friendly for your average owner.



Formula8, FYI we have dozens of customers running the hybrid setup like you are doing with zero issues using the Crane 99893 springs installed at 1.780-1.800".

Overall the hyd. roller set-ups have been very reliable and 95+% of the ones we've sold (well over a thousand at this point) are using Comp cams hyd. roller lifters and the 99893 springs and out of those we've had some issues with about 2-3% of the lifters. We have customers with tens of thousands of miles on their set-ups with no issues.

I'm all for having some extra spring pressure for a little more insurance especially for those running the solid roller lifters and turning higher rpm (above 6000), but having 200 on the seat and 600 open on a 245/252 .400" lobe lift cam is overkill. For years and about 500 passes (same set of Comp Cams 859 lifters) we ran a 279/283 @ .050" .650" lift solid roller in our 413ci iron headed engine in our 65 GTO with 200lbs on the seat and 575lbs open pressure going through the traps at 7500-7600rpm with no valve float issues, the lifters never failed and were put in a street motor when we sold the car.

Way more spring pressure than required not only eats up power it also puts more strain on valve train parts and cam bearings so while I always prefer to have a little extra, having way too much isn't the way to go either.

We use beehive springs on occasion and P-dude has a great set-up that he's proven to work very well, but at the end of the day I'm always looking at the most cost effective way to do things while maintaining long term reliability. For most of the hyd. roller combo's we do we've had nothing but success with using the 99893 springs and chrome moly retainers, we can certainly set-up customers heads using the same springs and retainers P-dude uses but there's a $400.00+ extra cost involved. There are some cheaper beehive springs available as well but we've seen some reliability issues with some of them so I just prefer a dual spring personally. quoting Steve C. this is a very good reason why "I've been fortunate over the last 20 years or so. I've only had one instance with a solid roller application that almost led to issues... I broke the inner coil on a dual valve spring and limped home."
If he would have had a beehive or single spring fail it would have led to catastrophic engine failure.

We do a lot of CNC porting and head machining work on LS heads for other shops in our area and what's interesting is that they are typically removing the beehives and going with a dual spring as they get into larger cams

Dave, thank you for taking your valuable time to add to this thread.