[BruceWilkie]

Brian I don't disagree on purpose built. Look at the the WHYs of it. Things like fuel limits, mechanical limits etc.. VE is still king in either type build.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Brian I don't disagree on purpose built. Look at the the WHYs of it. Things like fuel limits, mechanical limits etc.. VE is still king in either type build.

Agree but its the end result VE that counts not the base VE.

[BruceWilkie]

The base VE matters. If your goal requires say 1500 HP if your base motor can only make say 900 HP and another can make a base of 1200 because of VE which one do you build? Add 600hp of adder or 300 HP of adder?

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Not sure i agree, add nitrous to Dwight or Langer's engine, lots of base hp but highly doubt they'll handle loads of nitrous vs a purpose built nitrous engine that will make less base but will handle loads of nitrous, end result will be purpose built nitrous engine is faster. Im not sure base hp really means anything to anyone when it comes to power adder combos, except to the people that are involved in the engine program.

Valve timing events are key...

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

The base VE matters. If your goal requires say 1500 HP if your base motor can only make say 900 HP and another can make a base of 1200 because of VE which one do you build? Add 600hp of adder or 300 HP of adder?

To me it would matter which one can handle the power adder better. If the 1200hp engine will be very temperamental with the 300hp vs the 900hp with the 600hp, i'd take the 900hp. Base hp does matter (not saying it doesn't) but it only matters to the people involved in the engine program, imo.

[JSPONT]

Bruce my point is, The hardest way to go fast is N/A. Adding N20 or boost to an engine we all know that engine is built different.
To compare CV-1 performance to Dwight, Snyder,or Langer and be fair the masses would like to see a N/A all out build.
There is no other way to compare fair unless, you took the same motor, used the same cc head ported with the same flow, and swapped the heads. Then back to back track passes.
To tune a N20 or turbo car might be more difficult, but the results we all know are better h.p.
Those N/A guy's deserve more respect than the turbo and N20 guys. It's way hard to make that power that way.(and way more $$$$$$)

P.S. I am not attacking anyone here. I could car less what head everyone runs. If I hit lotto tomorrow, I would look to see who the fastest N/A car and buy that head and add a turbo. That's just me.
CV-1 builds an all out motor and drags everyones ass, people will buy it.
apples to apples has to be N/A.

[Anderson Port Development]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

Bruce my point is, The hardest way to go fast is N/A. Adding N20 or boost to an engine we all know that engine is built different.
To compare CV-1 performance to Dwight, Snyder,or Langer and be fair the masses would like to see a N/A all out build.
There is no other way to compare fair unless, you took the same motor, used the same cc head ported with the same flow, and swapped the heads. Then back to back track passes.
To tune a N20 or turbo car might be more difficult, but the results we all know are better h.p.
Those N/A guy's deserve more respect than the turbo and N20 guys. It's way hard to make that power that way.(and way more $$$$$$)

P.S. I am not attacking anyone here. I could car less what head everyone runs. If I hit lotto tomorrow, I would look to see who the fastest N/A car and buy that head and add a turbo. That's just me.
CV-1 builds an all out motor and drags everyones ass, people will buy it.
apples to apples has to be N/A.

.... i think most agree with what you're saying, but i also think some of what else is going on here, is that some would have you believe in a power adder comparison, the heads are not that big of a deal, or relevant for comparison ...

... well that is simply not true, Fulton's car has always been a N20 car and it's faster now, and not because we threw more N20 at it, the car is faster because of the new CV-1 combo, it makes more power on the dyno, then the old E-Head combo and it's faster on the track then the old E-Head combo, and we're not finished yet, Fulton's car is certainly not dialed in yet, but we'll get it there, it just takes times, just like Marcella referenced Langer is working with a new combo and new combos are the worst he said, so Fulton's new combo is no different ...

... now as for the N/A thing, yes i agree it is the preferred method of comparison, but many would have you believe the CV-1 has never been in an apples to apples comparison on N/A engines before, which is also not true, Calvin Hill has built some combo's for Quinn and Poe and both out ran the heads they replaced, while a CV-1 engine build comparable to a Langer, Snyder, Dwight, Leech and some others level has not been completed yet, not to my knowledge anyways, and i mean something that's built to turn well over 9000rpm, i'm not referencing effort of the builds ...

... it's just something that has not happened ... yet ... but my point is that every car on my list i posted for Curt Geise, the car went faster after the CV-1's went on, and most of them are N/A, so we expect to see the same trend with our 9000+rpm effort as well, and that's just being honest, not boastful ...

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

Bruce my point is, The hardest way to go fast is N/A. Adding N20 or boost to an engine we all know that engine is built different.
To compare CV-1 performance to Dwight, Snyder,or Langer and be fair the masses would like to see a N/A all out build.
There is no other way to compare fair unless, you took the same motor, used the same cc head ported with the same flow, and swapped the heads. Then back to back track passes.
To tune a N20 or turbo car might be more difficult, but the results we all know are better h.p.
Those N/A guy's deserve more respect than the turbo and N20 guys. It's way hard to make that power that way.(and way more $$$$$$)

P.S. I am not attacking anyone here. I could car less what head everyone runs. If I hit lotto tomorrow, I would look to see who the fastest N/A car and buy that head and add a turbo. That's just me.
CV-1 builds an all out motor and drags everyones ass, people will buy it.
apples to apples has to be N/A.

So how much quicker/ or more HP should a car go /or engine get with a head change?


GTO George

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by Anderson Port Development

.... i think most agree with what you're saying, but i also think some of what else is going on here, is that some would have you believe in a power adder comparison, the heads are not that big of a deal, or relevant for comparison ...

... well that is simply not true, Fulton's car has always been a N20 car and it's faster now, and not because we threw more N20 at it, the car is faster because of the new CV-1 combo, it makes more power on the dyno, then the old E-Head combo and it's faster on the track then the old E-Head combo, and we're not finished yet, Fulton's car is certainly not dialed in yet, but we'll get it there, it just takes times, just like Marcella referenced Langer is working with a new combo and new combos are the worst he said, so Fulton's new combo is no different ...

... now as for the N/A thing, yes i agree it is the preferred method of comparison, but many would have you believe the CV-1 has never been in an apples to apples comparison on N/A engines before, which is also not true, Calvin Hill has built some combo's for Quinn and Poe and both out ran the heads they replaced, while a CV-1 engine build comparable to a Langer, Snyder, Dwight, Leech and some others level has not been completed yet, not to my knowledge anyways, and i mean something that's built to turn well over 9000rpm, i'm not referencing effort of the builds ...

... it's just something that has not happened ... yet ... but my point is that every car on my list i posted for Curt Geise, the car went faster after the CV-1's went on, and most of them are N/A, so we expect to see the same trend with our 9000+rpm effort as well, and that's just being honest, not boastful ...

I agree and think Dicks car is bad ass and beautiful. I am sure there was a cam change and other things done which have to be with power adder motors.
After we put motors together and run them, we all know after what we should have done to make things better.
Again, to silence the masses a max build n/a that runs with the top boys puts a stamp on everything you have been saying.
Power adder cars are good with heavy bottom ends for strength, n/a car like light weight for rpm purposes but there will be a fine line of staying together and coming apart.

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

So how much quicker/ or more HP should a car go /or engine get with a head change?


GTO George

George, even if the CV1 ran the same et as the top 3 or 4 n/a guys, I think that is great, if it ran .1 faster at that level is awesome.
N/A power at that level, 20 h.p. is a sick gain. It's not us boosted guys who just can turn a knob and make a few adjustments for 200 h.p. but you know that and like to goat me. I still like you George!

[Anderson Port Development]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

I agree and think Dicks car is bad ass and beautiful. I am sure there was a cam change and other things done which have to be with power adder motors.
After we put motors together and run them, we all know after what we should have done to make things better.
Again, to silence the masses a max build n/a that runs with the top boys puts a stamp on everything you have been saying.
Power adder cars are good with heavy bottom ends for strength, n/a car like light weight for rpm purposes but there will be a fine line of staying together and coming apart.

... i agree with that 100% ...

[Anderson Port Development]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

George, even if the CV1 ran the same et as the top 3 or 4 n/a guys, I think that is great, if it ran .1 faster at that level is awesome.
N/A power at that level, 20 h.p. is a sick gain. It's not us boosted guys who just can turn a knob and make a few adjustments for 200 h.p. but you know that and like to goat me. I still like you George!

... very true, making an 11.00 car run 12.00's is far easier than making an 8.00 car run 7.00's, it's much more difficult at that level ...

... and once you're involved with builds of this level, N/A or P/A you have much respect for anyone that takes the time and money and effort to make gains at these high levels ...

... Leech, Kinsler, Snyder, Jack, Fulton, Langer, Marcella, Dwight, Dixon, Pickett's, Larson/Garblik, and others all deserve respect for that for sure ...

[slowbird]

I think Calvin's 511 he did for Tom Syron will help. Not max effort but a good go at. Imo it doesn't need to be a max effort build just a good build that runs better than the some of the parts.

[Anderson Port Development]

Originally Posted by slowbird

I think Calvin's 511 he did for Tom Syron will help. Not max effort but a good go at. Imo it doesn't need to be a max effort build just a good build that runs better than the some of the parts.

... well then i'd say Kelvin Poe's engine has already fulfilled that description ... and it was pretty much right out of the gate ... or Larry Quinn ...

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Anderson Port Development

... well then i'd say Kelvin Poe's engine has already fulfilled that description ... and it was pretty much right out of the gate ... or Larry Quinn ...

Not in my opinion.

[Anderson Port Development]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Not in my opinion.

... what a surprise ...

[T Syron]

Originally Posted by slowbird

I think Calvin's 511 he did for Tom Syron will help. Not max effort but a good go at. Imo it doesn't need to be a max effort build just a good build that runs better than the some of the parts.

I can tell you first hand. When you start pushing the 1000hp level even on the tightest of budgets. It gets real expensive. How many guys have the resources to compete at that level? Only a handful. How many are involved with Cv1s? Maybe 1 because I won't even count myself because I'm out of my league.

Poe's was an alcohol motor and Larry's an exhibition car. Not going to set the world on fire with either one. Until a serious NA guy puts as much attention to an NA build as you did or maybe a Glenn Sidig it's not gonna happen. The bottom line is that it takes time and money.

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by T Syron

I can tell you first hand. When you start pushing the 1000hp level even on the tightest of budgets. It gets real expensive. How many guys have the resources to compete at that level? Only a handful. How many are involved with Cv1s? Maybe 1 because I won't even count myself because I'm out of my league.

Poe's was an alcohol motor and Larry's an exhibition car. Not going to set the world on fire with either one. Until a serious NA guy puts as much attention to an NA build as you did or maybe a Glenn Sidig it's not gonna happen. The bottom line is that it takes time and money.

It will happen...and when it does and performs well, the haters will claim weight, tires, full tube car blah blah blah... So someone will have to build a car equal to langers, Snyder's or dwights...it will be a true apples to apples comparison...

[mysticmissle]

Scott you are obviously building a cv powered car for serious ultra or heads up class. What are you building? Your old firebird? Who is doing your motor and head work? Is Wilcox involved again?

[T Syron]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

It will happen...and when it does and performs well, the haters will claim weight, tires, full tube car blah blah blah... So someone will have to build a car equal to langers, Snyder's or dwights...it will be a true apples to apples comparison...

I agree. I've seen lot and lots of engines fall way short of expectations. It doesn't only apply to any one cylinder head.