[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Ehttfmf!

Fixed it for you. You shouldn't post and drink eggnog at the same time.

[S/st 54]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

You really don't need 1,200hp (it wouldn't hurt) to run T/S in a 2,500lb car besides Curt ran twin turbos. In a Boosted application 13-17 lbs of boost is all thats needed in a 2,500 lbs car to run T/S at MOST tracks! At that boost level a Pontiac can run for a VERY long time RACING!! Hell most tracks are 1/8 mile anyways.........aint nothing!!


GTO George

Really? My good friend Dougy has been running TS since 2010 he could qualify for all the races then....this past year his 2600lb 1360NA HP 632 DNQ's at few races every year since 2012...and is usually close to the bump running 7.30'[email protected] is a perennial championship contender....Heck George your in Division 3 the cars are fast fast in D3 you should know that.










Ok so what would you guys recommend for a guy that wants to stay Pontiac has a maxed out set of heads maxed out block WONT RUN POWER ADDERS IN A SUPER CLASS(since that curt is putting that motor in his SUPER GAS CAR)
Wants to run Naturally aspirated been running towards the top of his class in MPH (because that seems to be his preference) wants to put 200runs on a motor wo changing valve springs or head gaskets or plugs until the motor needs new rings and bearings.....and wants his 9.90 SUPER GAS CAR to run WELL OVER 170mph????? Is there a Pontiac doing that?WHAT IF there IS some guys that feel their Pontiac motors are at a crossroads and wana stay Pontiac but don't wana spend Another obsurd amount of money and another absurd amount of time to wait for it.... Suggestions are welcome.

Please don't bring up Something that's been 7yrs in the making either please I'm talking a realistic time frame....

I also saw Mr FULTONS motor brought up...
Yes FULTONS car is very impressive but it still took WELL over a year for that motor to materialize....

AND LOL if you keep bringing up turbo cars in SUPER GAS/SUPER COMP/SUPER STREET.Im sure it can be done but not competitive anytime soon. I know there is guys trying it and it's awesome but they struggle badly.

[Jim Zeek]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

You really don't need 1,200hp (it wouldn't hurt) to run T/S in a 2,500lb car besides Curt ran twin turbos. In a Boosted application 13-17 lbs of boost is all thats needed in a 2,500 lbs car to run T/S at MOST tracks! At that boost level a Pontiac can run for a VERY long time RACING!! Hell most tracks are 1/8 mile anyways.........aint nothing!!


GTO George

and just when have you run top sportsman to know what it takes to run it? scott rex made well north of 1100hp. and at 2350 pounds was on the bump at number 32 out of 40+ cars at yellowbullet 2 years ago. a small motor in t/s is 632. around here guys run 700 and 900 inch motors. most of these guys bitching about curt switching don't have the slightest idea of the time, money and effort that goes into some of these programs. I think langer missed 2 seasons waiting for his stuff. cost.....double and triple what curt is paying for his motor! kre and butler are not even in the same stadium with bes and some of the other builders. as I said, up to a certain hp you can run hundreds of passes bracket racing. the next level not so many without midseason teardowns.

[Jim Zeek]

Originally Posted by S/st 54

Please don't bring up Something that's been 7yrs in the making either please I'm talking a realistic time frame....

^^^^^^^^
multiple products and are still unproven

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Jim Zeek

and just when have you run top sportsman to know what it takes to run it? scott rex made well north of 1100hp. and at 2350 pounds was on the bump at number 32 out of 40+ cars at yellowbullet 2 years ago. a small motor in t/s is 632. around here guys run 700 and 900 inch motors. most of these guys bitching about curt switching don't have the slightest idea of the time, money and effort that goes into some of these programs. I think langer missed 2 seasons waiting for his stuff. cost.....double and triple what curt is paying for his motor! kre and butler are not even in the same stadium with bes and some of the other builders. as I said, up to a certain hp you can run hundreds of passes bracket racing. the next level not so many without midseason teardowns.

Zeek buddy you don't run top fuel BUT I bet you know what it take to QUALIFY. You don't have to race in a certain class to be knowledgeable in it. I also said MOST races not ALL.......just saying. You are correct a lot of people have no idea what it takes to make enough HP to run in T/S! All a racer needs is to qualify to WIN a T/S race.....it's just a Bracket race......a VERY FAST Bracket race! I'll still stand by what I said earlier.


GTO George

[John Langer]

Rex made right at 1200 n/a. His car would run 7.30's in bracket trim. He put a 125 shot on it and went 6.99. Again in bracket trim. He puts about 50 passes on his car each year and doesn't have to take the hood off the car between rounds. Doesn't have change head gaskets during the year. Doesn't have to change valve springs during the year.
My current project started in January of 2015 and made it into the car in July of 2016. There were zero delays due to money. In January of 2014 I picked up the phone and called tony and told him my plan. We were intrigued by the kre drce head but it wasn't worth the weight penalty in class racing. If you have to carry the weight of a drce you might as well build one. We talked about every head out there. Tigers, 5's, e pro ports, cv-1's etc. tony said to go with the tigers or pro ports. I called frank and ordered a set of bare tigers. The heads were delivered to lsm to be cubed mid march. That's where the head aches started. Lsm said it would take 2 weeks to cube the heads. We were suppose to have cubed heads April 1 2014 April fools... call after call, lsm said next week, next week. May passed, June, July, august passed. I said f it and called e and got their last set of pro ports. The Tuesday after Labor Day I told frank I needed heads in 2 weeks or I was going another direction. The next day lsm called and said without a doubt they would cube the castings the next day. The next day lsm called and said they lost the fixture to cube the heads and couldn't cube them. I told frank 1,5 weeks or I was going another direction. He had the heads sent to bob and he cubed them by hand. BES got the heads end of September and started on them mid October. It took around 3 months for BES to do the heads and billet intake. The heads were sent to jesel to make shaft bars. Jesel had 30 sets of heads in front of mine in the custom department. Strings were pulled and jesel started to design a he shaft bars. Conventional aluminum rockers could not be used due to the valve placement and desired ratio. They were backed up in the steel rocker department. At the end of the day it took 4 months to get shaft bars. We get the shaft bars and heads back mid may 2016. Had the motor on the pump mid June. Made 1260 but the heads were leaking on the front pads. Pulled the heads and fixed the leaks, made a cam and pushrods change and were back on the pump end of June. Put the motor in the car around July 1.
Other then the lsm delay, there was no delay that wouldn't have been incurred regardless of what brand engine I was putting together.

[PAUL K]

Do you think LSM found their cubing fixture yet?

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Do you think LSM found their cubing fixture yet?

Doubt it. I don't know if ap is doing their own cubing again?

[cgeise]

While there is a lot of speculation let me provide some facts as to why I did this. Late fall of 2015 I get ready to Freshen up the motor and get ready for the new Pro port heads. As luck would have it the Machine shop found cracks in the IA11 block running down the main web from the oil feed holes in the main saddle to the cam bearing area -- so I needed a block - NON- EXISTANT at that time Butler or AP had none - "they were in the works" after almost 2 months they did " a special run of 5- or 10 , I forget" so I got one after 2 plus months Cp finally **** some pistons and after the disaster that was Gabbys Pro Ports I was off racing, kinda, first two races aborted do to problems with the heads. I start looking at option, Maybe have Butler replace my Pro ports with there program - WAIT the castings are not available and end up being discontinued by Edelbrock. I then confirm with Frank from AP that the updated Tiger will become a reality and he commits to a finished pair by Thanksgiving.
Turkey day comes and goes - no heads I keep in contact with Frank and he keeps getting promises from the Foundry, I get to the same point Langer mentioned I had to have a drop dead point, couple weeks ago Frank confirms the foundry has been bull ****ting him and he cannot get a solid finish date -- after over 2 almost 3 years in the works. bottom line is am tired of fighting the fight - I don't run a class that has 7 cars show up and runs 3 rounds, we put a lot of rounds on our stuff and need good reliable stuff that is readily available if something gets hurt - Unfortunately it seems the Pontiac vendors are lagging badly in this area. Just a note, by the interest I have had in my stuff for sale and the comments I have received there are a lot of guys in the same boat -- good luck Curt PS I could give more examples but these are the ones that are my last straw. Merry Christmas

[Richie Hoffman]

How many runs on block?

[potentpontiac]

Curt. Was your Block Iron or the Aluminum version. No compensation for a Junk Block.

[69FIREBIRD76MM]

Jegs still selling the raw E. Pro ports
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Edelbrock-7781...%257Ciid%253A3

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by 69FIREBIRD76MM

Jegs still selling the raw E. Pro ports
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Edelbrock-7781...%257Ciid%253A3

No more 11*.

[J.C.you]

If one wanted to make a go at a upper class such as T/S perhaps a backup motor would be wise to have.

[cgeise]

Originally Posted by Richie Hoffman

How many runs on block?

not trying to bad mouth block had it quite a while --

[Tom Vaught]

Langer obviously has the resources and the commitment to go any path he wants and as he stated his deal took a long time to happen.

Curt obviously had issues with getting a block but if you can afford it a spare block is a smart move at times. People like palbykin can have a engine on a stand waiting if necessary, others like you and I are not so fortunate in that capability.

This is not the first story I have heard related to the LSM promises vs reality.
I do think that Bob and Frank try to do everything they can for their customers but at the end of the day they too are made promises by the suppliers and at times the promises are not kept over and over. Hey, it is only a Pontiac Guy who orders a few blocks each year, not GM who wants hundreds of Motorsport 632 blocks each year.

Sorry to see you go Curt but you have to do what you need to do to RACE which is your objective.

Merry Christmas tomorrow

Tom V.

[Aaron Quinton]

Great post, thank you.

It sounds like the W6's have a weight penalty? Is is the same for all canted valve heads?

Originally Posted by John Langer

Rex made right at 1200 n/a. His car would run 7.30's in bracket trim. He put a 125 shot on it and went 6.99. Again in bracket trim. He puts about 50 passes on his car each year and doesn't have to take the hood off the car between rounds. Doesn't have change head gaskets during the year. Doesn't have to change valve springs during the year.
My current project started in January of 2015 and made it into the car in July of 2016. There were zero delays due to money. In January of 2014 I picked up the phone and called tony and told him my plan. We were intrigued by the kre drce head but it wasn't worth the weight penalty in class racing. If you have to carry the weight of a drce you might as well build one. We talked about every head out there. Tigers, 5's, e pro ports, cv-1's etc. tony said to go with the tigers or pro ports. I called frank and ordered a set of bare tigers. The heads were delivered to lsm to be cubed mid march. That's where the head aches started. Lsm said it would take 2 weeks to cube the heads. We were suppose to have cubed heads April 1 2014 April fools... call after call, lsm said next week, next week. May passed, June, July, august passed. I said f it and called e and got their last set of pro ports. The Tuesday after Labor Day I told frank I needed heads in 2 weeks or I was going another direction. The next day lsm called and said without a doubt they would cube the castings the next day. The next day lsm called and said they lost the fixture to cube the heads and couldn't cube them. I told frank 1,5 weeks or I was going another direction. He had the heads sent to bob and he cubed them by hand. BES got the heads end of September and started on them mid October. It took around 3 months for BES to do the heads and billet intake. The heads were sent to jesel to make shaft bars. Jesel had 30 sets of heads in front of mine in the custom department. Strings were pulled and jesel started to design a he shaft bars. Conventional aluminum rockers could not be used due to the valve placement and desired ratio. They were backed up in the steel rocker department. At the end of the day it took 4 months to get shaft bars. We get the shaft bars and heads back mid may 2016. Had the motor on the pump mid June. Made 1260 but the heads were leaking on the front pads. Pulled the heads and fixed the leaks, made a cam and pushrods change and were back on the pump end of June. Put the motor in the car around July 1.
Other then the lsm delay, there was no delay that wouldn't have been incurred regardless of what brand engine I was putting together.

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by Aaron Quinton

Great post, thank you.

It sounds like the W6's have a weight penalty? Is is the same for all canted valve heads?

No, you can angle the valve any way you like. To get the bop weight break the head must have oem port layout, xiixxiix

[Don Keefe]

I don't fault anyone for their decisions regarding powerplant choices. Each person has their own situation and I trust that they can make informed decisions that are right for them. I am working on a feature about an LS powered car right now. He is a big fan of the traditional Pontiac V-8 but it is a Pro Touring/road racer and the owner was looking for lighter front end weight. Now, you can say that an aluminum IA2-based engine would be lightweight as well but it would still be a bit heavier. Plus, if he blows up an engine, he could have another one waiting for him when he got home. The down time for a custom build like that would likely be months. As Tom Vaught mentioned, we only have so much time on this planet- you don't want to spend the majority of it on the sidelines.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

I don't fault anyone for their decisions regarding powerplant choices. Each person has their own situation and I trust that they can make informed decisions that are right for them. I am working on a feature about an LS powered car right now. He is a big fan of the traditional Pontiac V-8 but it is a Pro Touring/road racer and the owner was looking for lighter front end weight. Now, you can say that an aluminum IA2-based engine would be lightweight as well but it would still be a bit heavier. Plus, if he blows up an engine, he could have another one waiting for him when he got home. The down time for a custom build like that would likely be months. As Tom Vaught mentioned, we only have so much time on this planet- you don't want to spend the majority of it on the sidelines.

............careful planning! Pontiac RULE!!!


GTO George