[opeliac]

If it isnt able to use some of the original Pontiac parts, then is it really a Pontiac?

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by opeliac

If it isnt able to use some of the original Pontiac parts, then is it really a Pontiac?

As long as some of the parts, withing reason its still a Pontiac. People who think it ALL has to be the same as original, need to GET OUT of the race section.

That kind of thinking holds us back.

The huge BBC and BBF stuff is "based" on the originals, good enough.

[chiefbigb]

Maybe the question should be what's the average age of the people making the blocks/heads we have currently? They have to retire at some point as well. What's the cost to return ratio on design and production of a larger bore spacing block. They know and more than likely it's a bad investment. If you wanted I'm sure in today's market you could have a billet block made to your specs and have the bore spacing of your dreams. If all it takes is to bolt on some external parts to be considered a Pontiac engine I can come up with some adapters and make this happen much cheaper. For the most part as a group we understand the limitations of the design we are working with and can respect the time and effort it takes to make one run fast. I doubt you get that in the Chevrolet world.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by chiefbigb

Maybe the question should be what's the average age of the people making the blocks/heads we have currently? They have to retire at some point as well. What's the cost to return ratio on design and production of a larger bore spacing block. They know and more than likely it's a bad investment. If you wanted I'm sure in today's market you could have a billet block made to your specs and have the bore spacing of your dreams. If all it takes is to bolt on some external parts to be considered a Pontiac engine I can come up with some adapters and make this happen much cheaper. For the most part as a group we understand the limitations of the design we are working with and can respect the time and effort it takes to make one run fast. I doubt you get that in the Chevrolet world.

If it was just the block it would be one thing. But what about heads? Sheet metal Intake manifold and header should not real be much different in cost no matter what the bore spacing. So what bore spacing should be used? One that someone else has already done for a different engine family. This will mean that there should be CNC programs to machine crankshafts and raw camshafts billets, maybe oil pans etc.

Stan

PS Nice to meet and talk with you at Capital last week.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

As long as some of the parts, withing reason its still a Pontiac. People who think it ALL has to be the same as original, need to GET OUT of the race section.

That kind of thinking holds us back.

The huge BBC and BBF stuff is "based" on the originals, good enough.

This coming from a guy who has never had a set of aluminum heads in his car? Btw, I'm not taking a shot at you, just pointing out most Pontiac racers won't spend the needed money to go to a high level. Some have complained if a standard Pontiac valve cover won't fit, it's not a true Pontiac. Spreading the bore space to gain a few more cubic inches still won't put Pontiacs in the same league as other brands. Everything on an engine like that will be a custom piece. Go read Langers response again to the issues Pontiac has to compete with other brands.

NHRA SS/AM runs at 8.50 lbs per CI. Assuming Langers engine is 565ci would put him at 4800lbs. I believe the record is around 7.95. Need I say more?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

This coming from a guy who has never had a set of aluminum heads in his car? Btw, I'm not taking a shot at you, just pointing out most Pontiac racers won't spend the needed money to go to a high level. Some have complained if a standard Pontiac valve cover won't fit, it's not a true Pontiac. Spreading the bore space to gain a few more cubic inches still won't put Pontiacs in the same league as other brands. Everything on an engine like that will be a custom piece. Go read Langers response again to the issues Pontiac has to compete with other brands.

NHRA SS/AM runs at 8.50 lbs per CI. Assuming Langers engine is 565ci would put him at 4800lbs. I believe the record is around 7.95. Need I say more?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Calvin,
SS/AM is a different animal than what Jason was talking about needing more cis for. What is the deck height on the short block you have / had? How low could it be milled? Would it take a small main (2.5" or less) journal crank?

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Calvin,
SS/AM is a different animal than what Jason was talking about needing more cis for. What is the deck height on the short block you have / had? How low could it be milled? Would it take a small main (2.5" or less) journal crank?

I've had two short decks, the first was a 9.750" aluminum IA-II block, standard mains, oversize cam and lifter bores in the OEM location. I sold this block when I could get the iron block.

The second is the iron IA-II meausres 9.500" with standard mains. I'm being told it will go to 9.250", I've yet to get into this project and it sits in the corner.

I know of at least 1- KRE AL block that was made with smaller mains, standard height block.

If we use 500ci (AKA NHRA PS) as a target for CI, decks sub 9.500" can be of benefit, but also comes with other issues when looking at the block. It's not a purpose built block for a 500CFM cylinder head. Mains, lifter bore and cam location are not optimized.

IMO, the best approach for building a motor like Jason wants is to build the motor with a much higher HP target and just dont' RPM the motor as high. Someone wants to make 1000 HP @ 7000 RPM, how much power would that engine need to make at peak? We are bore size limited, that make us valve size limted, cubic inch limited and so on. BBC have the ability in block and head design to accomplish those goals, the approach in using a Pontiac has to change. More compression, more cylinder head, more cam, intake and so on. Running the engine 700-1000 RPM below peak will improve the life of the engine.

Can you run numbers on a 500ci engine making 1000HP @7000 RPM?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

I've had two short decks, the first was a 9.750" aluminum IA-II block, standard mains, oversize cam and lifter bores in the OEM location. I sold this block when I could get the iron block.

The second is the iron IA-II meausres 9.500" with standard mains. I'm being told it will go to 9.250", I've yet to get into this project and it sits in the corner.

I know of at least 1- KRE AL block that was made with smaller mains, standard height block.

If we use 500ci (AKA NHRA PS) as a target for CI, decks sub 9.500" can be of benefit, but also comes with other issues when looking at the block. It's not a purpose built block for a 500CFM cylinder head. Mains, lifter bore and cam location are not optimized.

IMO, the best approach for building a motor like Jason wants is to build the motor with a much higher HP target and just dont' RPM the motor as high. Someone wants to make 1000 HP @ 7000 RPM, how much power would that engine need to make at peak? We are bore size limited, that make us valve size limted, cubic inch limited and so on. BBC have the ability in block and head design to accomplish those goals, the approach in using a Pontiac has to change. More compression, more cylinder head, more cam, intake and so on. Running the engine 700-1000 RPM below peak will improve the life of the engine.

Can you run numbers on a 500ci engine making 1000HP @7000 RPM?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Calvin,
I am not sure what numbers you want.

500 ci - 1000 HP @ 7000 RPM - .443 BSFC - 13.0:1 A/F would need 124.15% VE.

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Calvin,
I am not sure what numbers you want.

500 ci - 1000 HP @ 7000 RPM - .443 BSFC - 13.0:1 A/F would need 124.15% VE.

Stan

These numbers are a little more optimistic.

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

I've had two short decks, the first was a 9.750" aluminum IA-II block, standard mains, oversize cam and lifter bores in the OEM location. I sold this block when I could get the iron block.

The second is the iron IA-II meausres 9.500" with standard mains. I'm being told it will go to 9.250", I've yet to get into this project and it sits in the corner.

I know of at least 1- KRE AL block that was made with smaller mains, standard height block.

If we use 500ci (AKA NHRA PS) as a target for CI, decks sub 9.500" can be of benefit, but also comes with other issues when looking at the block. It's not a purpose built block for a 500CFM cylinder head. Mains, lifter bore and cam location are not optimized.

IMO, the best approach for building a motor like Jason wants is to build the motor with a much higher HP target and just dont' RPM the motor as high. Someone wants to make 1000 HP @ 7000 RPM, how much power would that engine need to make at peak? We are bore size limited, that make us valve size limted, cubic inch limited and so on. BBC have the ability in block and head design to accomplish those goals, the approach in using a Pontiac has to change. More compression, more cylinder head, more cam, intake and so on. Running the engine 700-1000 RPM below peak will improve the life of the engine.

Can you run numbers on a 500ci engine making 1000HP @7000 RPM?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Calvin,
Didn't someone at one time sell a spacer kit to use a crank with a reduced main journal size?

Stan

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Calvin,
Didn't someone at one time sell a spacer kit to use a crank with a reduced main journal size?

Stan

I don't see the main size as being the issue, there are ways around that and most high end cranks are custom units from Crower or Bryant,

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Calvin,
Didn't someone at one time sell a spacer kit to use a crank with a reduced main journal size?

Stan

Pontiac Dude

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

This coming from a guy who has never had a set of aluminum heads in his car? Btw, I'm not taking a shot at you, just pointing out most Pontiac racers won't spend the needed money to go to a high level. Some have complained if a standard Pontiac valve cover won't fit, it's not a true Pontiac. Spreading the bore space to gain a few more cubic inches still won't put Pontiacs in the same league as other brands. Everything on an engine like that will be a custom piece. Go read Langers response again to the issues Pontiac has to compete with other brands.

NHRA SS/AM runs at 8.50 lbs per CI. Assuming Langers engine is 565ci would put him at 4800lbs. I believe the record is around 7.95. Need I say more?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Imo once you start going that route with all that custom stuff just buy what's already out there and put Pontiac on the valve cover.
99.9% of Pontiac guys are way to cheap to even utilize what we currently have to it's full extent.

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Imo once you start going that route with all that custom stuff just buy what's already out there and put Pontiac on the valve cover.
99.9% of Pontiac guys are way to cheap to even utilize what we currently have to it's full extent.

X2
And there you have it!

[wreckmastr]

Originally Posted by slowbird

99.9% of Pontiac guys are way to cheap to even utilize what we currently have to it's full extent.

Most accurate statement in the whole thread!
If you want cheap and easy go build a Chevy.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

This coming from a guy who has never had a set of aluminum heads in his car? Btw, I'm not taking a shot at you, just pointing out most Pontiac racers won't spend the needed money to go to a high level. Some have complained if a standard Pontiac valve cover won't fit, it's not a true Pontiac. Spreading the bore space to gain a few more cubic inches still won't put Pontiacs in the same league as other brands. Everything on an engine like that will be a custom piece. Go read Langers response again to the issues Pontiac has to compete with other brands.

NHRA SS/AM runs at 8.50 lbs per CI. Assuming Langers engine is 565ci would put him at 4800lbs. I believe the record is around 7.95. Need I say more?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

I would call that a dig. And not even a backhanded compliment either. I have two sets of aluminum head BTW. One is about to be sold to pay for a chunk of the IA2A.
And yes I read Langers response, it was to a question asked by me.

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

As long as some of the parts, withing reason its still a Pontiac. People who think it ALL has to be the same as original, need to GET OUT of the race section.

That kind of thinking holds us back.

The huge BBC and BBF stuff is "based" on the originals, good enough.

If it retains the original front cover design, as well as oil filter location, it can be considered to be a custom Pontiac piece...

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by opeliac

If it retains the original front cover design, as well as oil filter location, it can be considered to be a custom Pontiac piece...

No one going that route would run a front cover, they'd run a timing belt.

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by slowbird

No one going that route would run a front cover, they'd run a timing belt.

So if you cant bolt an original front cover onto it...What is there that would truly make it a Pontiac?

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by opeliac

So if you cant bolt an original front cover onto it...What is there that would truly make it a Pontiac?

Nothing, that's why you put Pontiac on the valve covers and go with it.