[tininjun68]

I've got the opportunity to buy the '68 Firebird Bracket Car that I drove in Pro ET. Only thing is it's got a stroker sbc in it. I was going 10.50's as it was. I haven't built a race motor before so question is: how much to build a Pontiac bracket motor that will make this 2800lb car stay in the 10.50's? It's got a glide and I believe 4.88's. Car is consistent but I'd really like to campaign it-Pontiac Powered. Any similar combos to compare to or spec motor suggestions are welcome, thanks.

[charlie66]

Probably 10+ grand..

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Probably 10+ grand..

No,No,No........... in a car that weight he could do it with a number of combos. Plain jane home ported D ports could get it done. Easy. You could do it on pump gas.
Its 2800lbs man. My buddy runs mid 10s with 62s, 4" stroke crank, 750, Warrior in a second gen Formula.
With a little effort it could be done with factory block,crank, iron heads and good rods and pistons.
There were a few short blocks just sold here that were more than enough to get it done.
I am at 10.90s, pump gas, iron heads, plain TRW 455 with cheap H beams in a all steel, all glass 69 GTO. Give me 2800lbs and I bet I could cover that.
Might have to change gears, big deal. Its a race car.

[ponyakr]

You can buy the stock block, short block for around $5k, with a forged crank, and roller cam.

Can save close to $1000, by going with a flat tappet cam.

http://lenwilliamsautomachine.com/455_Short_Block.html

http://www.sandovalperformance.com/engines

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234783

The Spotts site shows an aftermarket 505 short block, for $6190. Don't know if that price is current or not. Forged crank will probably add $400.

http://www.spottsperformance.com/IA2%20engine%20block2

Most say that it costs at least $1000 to do a set of unported iron heads. Alum heads are what, at least $2500, or more.

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewPro...?productID=583

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Al...er%20Heads.htm

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3024...tegory:1287735

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Al...er%20Heads.htm

In order to build from scratch & and buy all new parts, I'd say it would be hard to build a 10.50 engine for less than $8k. But, if you have ready to run heads, intake, carb, and any other necessary parts, it would obviously reduce the cost.

[ponyakr]

The Pontiac Stockers are running mid 10's, with 400 engine, iron D-ports, iron intake, 750 Q-jet, & flat tappet .425 lift cam, at over 3400lbs.

And that's footbrakin, with 9" slicks.

Some of the 400 GT Super Stock Cars are running in the 9's, with slightly ported iron heads, a 750 Q-jet, roller cam, brake, & big tires.

So, with more cubes, ported iron or alum heads, roller cam, Northwind or Victor intake, Dominator carb, and big tires, 10.50's should be easy in a 2800lb car.

I've read here that unported KRE High Ports are about the best value out there, for a build in this hp range. Not trying to start a "which head is best" argument.

I'd be interested in reading about a 10.50 engine build, that was less than $10k, in which the builder/buyer had to buy every engine part, including block, heads, cam, intake, carb, etc.

[t money]

Also visit or join a forum call ClassRacer.com.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

No,No,No........... in a car that weight he could do it with a number of combos. Plain jane home ported D ports could get it done. Easy. You could do it on pump gas.
Its 2800lbs man. My buddy runs mid 10s with 62s, 4" stroke crank, 750, Warrior in a second gen Formula.
With a little effort it could be done with factory block,crank, iron heads and good rods and pistons.
There were a few short blocks just sold here that were more than enough to get it done.
I am at 10.90s, pump gas, iron heads, plain TRW 455 with cheap H beams in a all steel, all glass 69 GTO. Give me 2800lbs and I bet I could cover that.
Might have to change gears, big deal. Its a race car.

Ok , so what will it cost then?

[Dragncar]

Just pull that POS small block out of it, disgraceful and put the engine back in it was always supposed to have. I think its a joke to put a Fing chevy, big block or small block when you can run the intended ET with a Pontiac. I laugh at every single one of them I see.
Sure, you can build sbc combos, high effort that are hard for Pontiacs to beat. Class racing ect. But tens ?
I plan on knocking on the 9 second door with a pump gas PMD block in a car a lot heavier than this one.
He can use a lot of used parts and with a little help from around here reach his goal with a very reliable engine. Give me 10 grand and can do it with cash to spare. A complete engine with aluminum heads just sold for around 4K. It sold fast, steal but it can be done. Darby sold his race block with pistons for under 2K, another sold a race prepped block too recently.
A lot of us have the parts and ability to get it done with parts laying in our garages. I could. Dont even use the stuff.
Get the chevy out.

[Dragncar]

If you have a decent of iron Pontiac heads for 1800$ SD can CNC port them to 270cfm, solid roller, very nice.
But you can get close with porting them yourself al la Jim Hand. I know he can get to 10.80 with like heads and a RAIV cam in a 400. Same friend was 11 flat with that in the Formula.
There was a set of 16s that SD CNC ported to 270 that sold for 600$ here, bare.

[charlie66]

Cost me 12k + to make 660hp . My car ran 10.20 first time out 3380 race weight ..

10K Easy to build it right. Why do it on the cheap? Make it last ..

Ive been spinning mine to 7200 for 7 years on the same bearings..

Build it once...

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Cost me 12k + to make 660hp . My car ran 10.20 first time out 3380 race weight ..

10K Easy to build it right. Why do it on the cheap? Make it last ..

Ive been spinning mine to 7200 for 7 years on the same bearings..

Build it once...

I built my 455 for 5500$ back in the 80s. Went to roller cam later so I spent another 1000$ or so.
What makes you think just by paying more than you should that doing it for less, or "on the cheap" as you put it, that your engine will not be reliable and run well for a long time.
You can make 470HP with a 400, SRP Fts, decent steel rods, HFT and a unported iron intake and Q Jet. That is with the SD CNC ported D ports.
Solid roller, some 6.8 H beams and good FTs, Tomahawk nice DP carb and he is 530+ HP with a iron headed 400 on pump gas.
4" stroke engine, his best bet and 600HP is no big deal.
One of the most important, and free things to do in a engine like this is make sure your main bearings have the oil slot, or hole drilled in the right place and do the P Dude trick with the thrust bearing. That is free modification anyone can do with a vise, drill and files.
No need to overpay for things in a engine that is done by 6000RPMs.
BTW, there is no better intake for the money than the Tomahawk, period. They are cheap and work very well. A SD ported HSD for 150 bucks or so.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

I built my 455 for 5500$ back in the 80s. Went to roller cam so I spent another 1000$ or so.
What makes you think just by paying more than you should that doing it for less, or "on the cheap" as you put it, that your engine will not be reliable and run well for a long time.
You can make 470HP with a 400, SRP Fts, decent steel rods, HFT and a unported iron intake and Q Jet. That is the the SD CNC ported D ports.
Solid roller, some 6.8 H beams and good FTs, Tomahawk nice DP carb and he is 530+ HP with a iron headed 400 on pump gas.
4" stroke engine, his best bet and 600HP is no big deal.
One of the most important, and free things to do in a engine like this is make sure your main bearings have the oil slot, or hole drilled in the right place and do the P Dude trick with the thrust bearing. That is free modification anyone can do with a vise, drill and files.
No need to overpay for things in a engine that is done by 6000RPMs.

Its not the 80"s anymore.... So what it going to cost him ??

[Richie Hoffman]

I went 1030 at3000 lbs 68 bird in early 90s 455 trwpistons 73 SD rods unported RAIV heads 260 [email protected] custom hyd flat tappet Torker 1
1050 carb same combo ported heads went9.99@132 ported dports would get et he wants Jamie Horton has dports with solid flat tappet cam weighs 3400 or 3500 in his tempest
Goes low 10s

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Its not the 80"s anymore.... So what it going to cost him ??

Right now on PY for sale, ported 12s with Ferra valves 500$, 4.155 Ross stroker pistons with pins locks new 400$, Roller cam 150$ lifters 225$, a 400 with E heads sold for 3750$ and a 461 with KRE D ports sold for 4000$ complete.
You can find deals. Some people think Pontiac blocks and heads are scrap metal. My brother was given a 71 GTO engine, I bought a 455 with 6X8s. new RPM, Lunati .540lift cam and lifters, roller chain for 350$ and a 67 400 that had a P4B, 48s with hardened seats, bronze guides, good valves, TRW FTs for 50$.
Patience and a little luck.
Me, I pay for port work, machine work and parts. Everything else I do myself.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Right now on PY for sale, ported 12s with Ferra valves 500$, 4.155 Ross stroker pistons with pins locks new 400$, Roller cam 150$ lifters 225$, a 400 with E heads sold for 3750$ and a 461 with KRE D ports sold for 4000$ complete.
You can find deals. Some people think Pontiac blocks and heads are scrap metal. My brother was given a 71 GTO engine, I bought a 455 with 6X8s. new RPM, Lunati .540lift cam and lifters, roller chain for 350$ and a 67 400 that had a P4B, 48s with hardened seats, bronze guides, good valves, TRW FTs for 50$.
Patience and a little luck.
Me, I pay for port work, machine work and parts. Everything else I do myself.

Well if one gets lucky and finds parts at other peoples unfortunate expense , then it would be cheaper. But having to buy everything new is a whole different situation...

[GregM329]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

One of the most important, and free things to do in a engine like this is make sure your main bearings have the oil slot, or hole drilled in the right place and do the P Dude trick with the thrust bearing. That is free modification anyone can do with a vise, drill and files.

I'm assembling a 400 block soon, and I was not aware of the above quoted crank and thrust bearing specs. Can you tell me where I can out more on these techniques? Thanks!

Greg

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by GregM329

Can you tell me where I can out more on these techniques? Thanks!

Greg

From Pontiac Dude's old site:
---------------------------------------

Thrust Bearing Modification For Longer Life

Below are pictures showing how to increase the life of your thrust bearing for Pontiacs.
With higher stall converters and increased line pressure of transmission shift kits, you have more forward thrust loaded on this bearing. This modification, however, is recommended for all High performance engines.

I take the thrust bearing and lay it on a belt sander at a 30 degree angle and grind till the bevel edge reaches the corner of the main shell. Then take a flat file and clean up the flashing with a slight bevel to the edge.

--------------
*** Main Bearing Pontiac mod info: ***

I elongate the oil feed holes to match the angled feed main hole in the block. Usually I only elongate about the size of the original hole in #2 and #4 only. This seems to be the Load & critical areas in Pontiac performance and trouble. The rear main bearing I don't touch as I feel the wider area of the bearing is sufficient to hold oil, plus being the first fed from the pump. I also elongate the front feed hole half the size of the original hole for hydraulic cam engines to allow sufficient supply to the lifter fed through #1 main on the other side without sacrificing oil to the main and #2 rod.

[tininjun68]

More good info, thanks to all! Trap speed is hard to beat. I did well getting chased or doing the chasing when I was the quicker dialed car in Pro ET. Thanks for the good links, I've been checking them out. I do know Adam Strang's cars. His '68 GTO is currently for sale and it's a beaut! Wish his Firebird was for sale

So after a couple days worth of talking, it's likely I won't make the deal for this '68 Firebird I mentioned. I'll still be interested if another similar car comes along.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

From Pontiac Dude's old site:
---------------------------------------

Thrust Bearing Modification For Longer Life

Below are pictures showing how to increase the life of your thrust bearing for Pontiacs.
With higher stall converters and increased line pressure of transmission shift kits, you have more forward thrust loaded on this bearing. This modification, however, is recommended for all High performance engines.

I take the thrust bearing and lay it on a belt sander at a 30 degree angle and grind till the bevel edge reaches the corner of the main shell. Then take a flat file and clean up the flashing with a slight bevel to the edge.

--------------
*** Main Bearing Pontiac mod info: ***

I elongate the oil feed holes to match the angled feed main hole in the block. Usually I only elongate about the size of the original hole in #2 and #4 only. This seems to be the Load & critical areas in Pontiac performance and trouble. The rear main bearing I don't touch as I feel the wider area of the bearing is sufficient to hold oil, plus being the first fed from the pump. I also elongate the front feed hole half the size of the original hole for hydraulic cam engines to allow sufficient supply to the lifter fed through #1 main on the other side without sacrificing oil to the main and #2 rod.

I dont elongate/drill only #2 and #4, I do all of them. I even make the rear main a little bigger. The problem is the main shot of oil comes from the hole in the block on the "tab" side. But the hole in many bearings like Clevite is just a round hole in the center.
So, the oil has to hit the back of the bearing, move over to the misplaced hole in the bearing and on its way. Bad deal since that shop of oil has to get to the main bearing surface AND all the way up to the rod bearings. Rod bearings wont live long at RPMs with just the round hole. Just not very much time for everything to line up and get pressure all the way to the rod. The "detour" the oil has to take is the issue.
So I modify all of them. Must work since my engine was done in 1990 and has had only 2 sets in that time. Rods, 3 times.

[ponjohn]

You need 480 hp at that weight.