[Pronto Poncho]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Agreed. The rocker arm replacement didn't address the original issue, and adds additional concerns that need to be addressed. Don't get me wrong The crowers are good parts, but they require the correct pushrod, polylok, etc to function properly. Performance engines are complex Custom Engineered systems, one shouldn't just swap parts without verifying things. Often its fine to replace like for like parts, but 30% of the time it'll bite you in the azz unless you do the deep dive on fitment...

I agree with your concerns . Paul was involved in picking out the new rocker arms. I was not involved in the installation but remember some concerns being mentioned about pushrod length. There was no discussion about changing the pushrods to match the new rocker arms from Paul’s side so I guess everyone assumed that it was a good match. I can’t help but feel we are getting close to identifying this problem. The best thing would be if PAUL could get his hands on the motor. But that’s no easy request

[HWYSTR455]

Changing rockers isn't going to change the pushrod length requirement by much, if at all. It's not like we are switching to a Ford rocker or something.

If the fulcrum/trunion is upside down, the lock won't go on the stud. The locks came with the rockers.

I checked the rocker adjustments twice, went rocker by rocker, and 2 people checked it after me. Only thing I can think of there is that maybe the lifters weren't pumped up or were/are collapsed. I don't think the pushrods are that bent to make that much of a difference, but I haven't seen the pushrods in person.

One thing I did notice is that in Paul's pic with the covers off, there are no witness marks on the rockers, so that pretty much removes the thought of the witness marks on the rockers being from a wrench. I never thought that anyway, because who wouldn't use the boxed end for the lock?

I'm thinking loosen the rockers, order pushrods, install when they come in, and if the adjustment/locks show a difference, pull the intake and valley to check the lifters.

My suggestion, but it's not my call.

.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

I've watched every video several times.

Appears that the tap in question hasn't changed since day one.

Appears that it's a single tap..NOT 16 that would indicate some kind of geometry problem.

(FWIW) The original rockers have at least .060" clearance, at the closest point, between the poly hex and rocker body.

(FWIW) The original rockers have no shiny witness marks that would indicate bottoming out in the bottom rocker slot or against the poly lock.

If and BIG IF one of the lifters isn't holding pressure....Engine running, find it by pushing down on the rocker with the palm of your hand (at the pushrod). Then I'd run the poly down to see if you can quieten the tap noise.

If BIG IF it does have a bad/leaky lifter, I'd go as far as setting the lifter .010" or so (cold) "from bottomed out" and get some drive time in untill that lifter can be replaced.

If it is a bad/leaky lifter, replacement here would be ahelluva lot cheaper than shipping to and from AZ.

Oh so slightly bent pushrods are not causing this "SINGLE" tapping noise.

Need new eyes, new hands, or something to get this tap narrowed down.

Don't know who wants this figured out and fixed the most...Joe, Paul or me.

Clay

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Different helper needed here to straighten this mess out. If some of those trunions aren't flipped, flat side down, valve adjustment is in the danger zone.

Flipped trunions or rocker studs backed out??? Pushrods would have to be BENT BENT WARPED BAD to cause this.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Different helper needed here to straighten this mess out. If some of those trunions aren't flipped, flat side down, valve adjustment is in the danger zone.

Saw that picture on post 161 and instantly saw issues. Funny only 2 people asked about that and after 2 pages the comments went unanswered. Whom ever Joe had install and adjust those should have seen that right away. Either the trunions are flipped or....??

Too many people have had their hands on this thing now and it seems instead of a cure it's just creating more problems.

[TedRamAirII]

Was this problem ever resolved? Was new lifters the FIX?

[Va68goat]

MXTex,

Thanks for taking the time to read through this thread..I'm sure it took a while! I'm not too sure if I'm qualified to answer that since I'm pretty clueless about cars but it does appear to knock at the revolution of the crank.

torqhead,
We have over 40 hours of diagnosis, repair and replace time in this motor since the car was started. There were, what we thought were witness marks on the rockers. I replaced the rockers with 1.65 Crower rockers. When we switched the rockers, we looked at the pushrods and rolled them on a piece of glass. A few of the pushrods wobbled on the glass so we switched out the pushrods with a thicker wall pushrod. I was then told the lifters may not be pumping up. We replaced the lifters (Johnson Hylift) and the same knocking noise was present. When we disconnected the torque converter from the flexplate, that was BEFORE we pulled the motor and identified there was not enough spacing on the windage tray. There were witness marks on the windage tray. I haven't pulled the torque converter from the flex plate since we corrected the spacing. The knocking from the windage tray masked the knocking noise that we are trying to figure out. Here is something interesting though...When I pulled the heads and had them inspected and we got the car on the road again.when I drove it home and parked it in the garage, I turned the car off and right at shut down a noise was heard that I can only explain as if two pieces of metal scrapping and coming to rest.

AG,
If I have to pull this motor again, I think it will be on it's way to Arizona to Paul..hahaha. I do have to say that Paul and Jeff have been awesome and they both have been excellent to deal with. They stand by their product and I would not hesitate to go back and have them build me another motor. Not too many people around like those guys..

torqhead,
The question about the shim exceeds my mechanical abilities and knowledge..hahaha! I have good friends that have been working on Pontiacs for many, many years. I trust them to do the work correctly. I'm assuming it was done correctly but we will find out soon. I agree with what you said about throwing money at parts. I have over $1,000 in parts, fluids, gaskets and Tylenol and have only driven the car less than 200 miles. I think we're getting there though!

[Va68goat]

After months of testing and diagnosing, we're finally going to replace the lifters. Paul installed Hylift - Johnson lifters with a part number A-234S. By running that part number, this is pretty much what I find.

https://www.pluswhole.top/pontiac-ra...7-p-13615.html
For some reason, the link isn't showing the "S" on the part number. Paul has confirmed the part number ending with an "S".

Is anyone familiar with these lifters or know where I can find them? I checked Butlers but the part numbers are different. If anyone can provide another alternative to these lifters that I have or know where I can find the lifters that Paul used, I would appreciate it. It seems that Paul can't locate another set of these lifters either.

Joe

[chiphead]

The part number changed according to Paul K. Now the lifters are only available with the E suffix, which is pressure fed pin oiling. It makes sense, since you want positive oil feed to the rollers. The S (slow bleed) and R (fast bleed) are still good PNs.

A-2347SE is the set you want, and is what I have.

I recently got a set from Paul K, who is an engine builder who posts here. However, I just did a search and the H-J website is down. Hopefully just a glitch.

If you want to use another brand, there are a few threads on here about HR lifters. They go into deep comparisons of the various designs.

[MXTex]

I just scimmed through this entire thread. (slow day at work....lol) It's a fascinating read. I'm in agreement with determination of the frequency of the tick. Is it in synch with the rotation of the crankshaft or camshaft?

[Va68goat]

NeighborsComplaint,

I used the same flex plate bolts that were used when it was on the 400 motor. I'm going to have to check that out though. Good idea..thank you!

torqhead,
Now you're making me want to put the car up on jack stands right now and see if thats the issue. As I said before, I'm inexperienced with these old cars but I'm sure learning a lot. Thats solid advice you gave me. Hopefully I can get a chance this week to check that out. This knocking noise has killed me all summer long..if thats the issue, I'll be sending you a bottle of something..hahaha.

ponchjoe,
The knocking noise is present in gear and in neutral/park. The torque converter is not used. I ordered it from Cliff. I'm not sure about the front pump.

TedRamAirII,
Yeah, Paul inspected the flexplate and balanced it. Yes, we did pull the converter back and the knocking noise was still present. The flex plate wasn't on the motor when it was shipped. It was torqued to specs on the day we installed the motor. We did inspect the flexplate when the motor was pulled and it seemed fine. I'm really hoping this will fix the problem. We're hopefully going to change the flexplate this week or this weekend. I will post updates.

Since I'm changing the flexplate, do you guys think it would be a good idea to change out the flexplate bolts as well.
https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...-200-2904.html

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

NeighborsComplaint,

I used the same flex plate bolts that were used when it was on the 400 motor. I'm going to have to check that out though. Good idea..thank you!

torqhead,
Now you're making me want to put the car up on jack stands right now and see if thats the issue. As I said before, I'm inexperienced with these old cars but I'm sure learning a lot. Thats solid advice you gave me. Hopefully I can get a chance this week to check that out. This knocking noise has killed me all summer long..if thats the issue, I'll be sending you a bottle of something..hahaha.

ponchjoe,
The knocking noise is present in gear and in neutral/park. The torque converter is not used. I ordered it from Cliff. I'm not sure about the front pump.

TedRamAirII,
Yeah, Paul inspected the flexplate and balanced it. Yes, we did pull the converter back and the knocking noise was still present. The flex plate wasn't on the motor when it was shipped. It was torqued to specs on the day we installed the motor. We did inspect the flexplate when the motor was pulled and it seemed fine. I'm really hoping this will fix the problem. We're hopefully going to change the flexplate this week or this weekend. I will post updates.

Since I'm changing the flexplate, do you guys think it would be a good idea to change out the flexplate bolts as well.
https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...-200-2904.html

I realize you have a new flexplate to install, but I would highly recommend trying to find what is making the noise before making any further changes. Too many times I've seen throwing money and changing parts doesn't fix a problem and all it does is take money you could have spent elsewhere. If you listen to that video the noise gets prominent right at the point where you're under the flywheel. And you already determined disconnecting the torque converter it still makes noise which means it's forward from the flywheel.

Lets find what's producing the noise! Use the method I mentioned as it's safer and it'll give you a good look as to what may be going on there. I'm hoping like hell you find it there and get this behind you so you can enjoy the car.

[surfsama]

Sorry if this was already covered but after watching the video it seems like the knocking taps are slower than the crankshaft rotational speed.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by surfsama

Sorry if this was already covered but after watching the video it seems like the knocking taps are slower than the crankshaft rotational speed.

I would tend to agree with that. Does this engine have a mechanical fuel pump? If it does, take it off and run the engine for 30 seconds or so until the carb runs out of gas and listen for the knock. Seems the valve train has already been accounted for. If it doesn't have a mechanical pump, I am out of ideas. It was likely run on the Dyno with an electric pump only.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

5 bent pushrods!
Do you have a rev limiter?
Bent push rods come from valve train interference...or loss of valve train control by the springs.
Interference can be ruled out when done by a pro that does this every day.
Have you checked for any broken valve springs?
Damaged (intake) valve tips..mushroomed?
Straight edge across valve tips to look for stretched valves...especially intakes.?

[chiphead]

I'm discounting the bent pushrod thing right now. I'd want to see pics of these pushrods before I call anything bent.

I also want to see pics taken while this engine is being disassembled. PIcs of valley pan installed, then removed, then pics of how pushrods fit in lifters, pics of the amount of preload, etc. Do not disassemble the rockers or pushrods, take the valley pan off first. This will show how good you guys really are at setting valves.

I'm leaning toward minor contact between lifters and valley pan. Unfortunately, the only way to 100% check clearance is to fit the valley pan on with the heads removed, which allows direct observation of the clearance. Witness marks may be present, depending on severity of contact and how long its been hitting.

Collapsed lifter is another possibility. A fully collapsed lifter is easy to see, the plunger is stuck partway down its travel with pushrod removed. A lifter that is not collapsed but won't function properly is harder to detect, as the failure to function is only apparent when it's running.

You might could pressurize the oil system and roll the engine a few revolutions by hand and see if you notice a lifter that is not flowing oil to the pushrod, or is not lifting the valve properly as the cam lobe picks the lifter up.

Since you can't disassemble the lifters, the only option is to replace the set. I know that Paul modifies the lifter bores of his builds to run the highlift-johnson slow bleed lifters. I'm using the same ones in my build, and they are very nice pieces.

[Va68goat]

Hey Grand73Am,

We didn't notice any witness marks in the pan when we pulled the motor to space the windage tray. We checked the valley pan to ensure there were no witness marks there as well. No clue what else to do!