[vidguy]

That's a possibility.. A skype video call or something?

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Different helper needed here to straighten this mess out. If some of those trunions aren't flipped, flat side down, valve adjustment is in the danger zone.

Saw that picture on post 161 and instantly saw issues. Funny only 2 people asked about that and after 2 pages the comments went unanswered. Whom ever Joe had install and adjust those should have seen that right away. Either the trunions are flipped or....??

Too many people have had their hands on this thing now and it seems instead of a cure it's just creating more problems.

[GTO JONES]

Too many hands have been on that motor. Bite the bullet and send it back to Paul and let him fix it and leave it alone. Period

[John Milner]

Since some of the pushrods are bent I'm wondering if the correct length pushrods were used to replace the bent ones? Maybe the new ones were mis-marked or something? I think I'd pull that intake and valley pan, inspect the lifters and pushrods and re-adjust the valves, making sure the rockers are installed correctly.

[tom s]

2X gto jones

[promptcritical]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Too many people have had their hands on this thing now and it seems instead of a cure it's just creating more problems.

Originally Posted by GTO JONES

Too many hands have been on that motor. Period

Originally Posted by tom s

2X gto jones

This^^^^^

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by Pronto Poncho

As it turns out I don’t believe the rocker arms were ever a problem. They were replaced as an attempted to address the problem. I can’t help but worry if something is going on with the geometry of the valve train. As much as I hate the thought of the extra work it may be a good idea to go ahead take off the intake and valley pan and take a look at those lifters.

One question keeps going over in my mind. If Paul has done a number of these engine builds and all have been done using the same combination of parts with no problems what was different that would cause this problem? The Valley pan was a simple mistake that could be made by anyone of us. But here is the big question. If all the same parts were used that were used on an all these other successful builds. Then it can only be one of two things, a component failure or error made during the build. The hard part now is finding out which it is.

I dont think the rockers were a problem, but they were replaced. I would think the pushrods would be examined as well, I mean...... you are right there. I was just looking at the tops of the poly locks and noticed different heights, they should be pretty uniform. So its either a lot of bad/bent pushrods or the valve adjustment is way off, or there are lifter issues. Look at #2 intake and exh rocker set screws, they are way different ! #4 int, #6 exh, #8 int all set screws are down low, like they are set loose? I just hate the motor to be pulled and shipped for it to it end up something simple!

[Va68goat]

I understand having too many hands in the motor. Since, I'm very new to this, I certainly wouldn't want to do the adjusting myself. I have to wait until friends are available to help in between working on their car and their job. There is one common denominator though. The ticking noise was present when the car was first started with the Crane rockers as it is now after switching to the Crower rockers. It's the same sound coming from the same location. It "appears" to be coming from the #8 location but I now understand how noise can travel.

The pushrods were checked and 5 of them were bent. Bent may be too extreme of a word. I think it would be best described as "warped". All the good pushrods rolled off the piece of glass where the "warped" ones wobbled and did not roll off the glass.

[chiphead]

Has the Valley Pan been checked, to make sure the lifter tie bars aren't kissing the underside of the Valley Pan? After the windage tray, roller tie bar hitting the valley pan is the next common interference point.

if these were iron heads, I would suspect that the pushrods are dragging on the heads, due to the 1. 65 rockers. But the Kaufman heads have enough clearance, right?

(Just FYI Joe, often when you put 1. 65 rockers on iron heads, you get interference between the push rod and the head casting. It can result in slightly bent pushrods. I would imagine that aftermarket heads will clear)

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Has the Valley Pan been checked, to make sure the lifter tie bars aren't kissing the underside of the Valley Pan? After the windage tray, roller tie bar hitting the valley pan is the next common interference point.

if these were iron heads, I would suspect that the pushrods are dragging on the heads, due to the 1. 65 rockers. But the Kaufman heads have enough clearance, right?

(Just FYI Joe, often when you put 1. 65 rockers on iron heads, you get interference between the push rod and the head casting. It can result in slightly bent pushrods. I would imagine that aftermarket heads will clear)

Heads had plenty of room for 1.65 rockers. Also the valley pan appeared to have plenty of clearance.

[Va68goat]

So yesterday we readjusted the rockers and started the car. The ticking noise was still there. I'm hoping to take the intake off today and check the valley pan for any witness marks. For my own knowledge, what are you looking for when inspecting the lifters to determine if it's bad or not?

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

5 bent pushrods!
Do you have a rev limiter?
Bent push rods come from valve train interference...or loss of valve train control by the springs.
Interference can be ruled out when done by a pro that does this every day.
Have you checked for any broken valve springs?
Damaged (intake) valve tips..mushroomed?
Straight edge across valve tips to look for stretched valves...especially intakes.?

[chiphead]

I'm discounting the bent pushrod thing right now. I'd want to see pics of these pushrods before I call anything bent.

I also want to see pics taken while this engine is being disassembled. PIcs of valley pan installed, then removed, then pics of how pushrods fit in lifters, pics of the amount of preload, etc. Do not disassemble the rockers or pushrods, take the valley pan off first. This will show how good you guys really are at setting valves.

I'm leaning toward minor contact between lifters and valley pan. Unfortunately, the only way to 100% check clearance is to fit the valley pan on with the heads removed, which allows direct observation of the clearance. Witness marks may be present, depending on severity of contact and how long its been hitting.

Collapsed lifter is another possibility. A fully collapsed lifter is easy to see, the plunger is stuck partway down its travel with pushrod removed. A lifter that is not collapsed but won't function properly is harder to detect, as the failure to function is only apparent when it's running.

You might could pressurize the oil system and roll the engine a few revolutions by hand and see if you notice a lifter that is not flowing oil to the pushrod, or is not lifting the valve properly as the cam lobe picks the lifter up.

Since you can't disassemble the lifters, the only option is to replace the set. I know that Paul modifies the lifter bores of his builds to run the highlift-johnson slow bleed lifters. I'm using the same ones in my build, and they are very nice pieces.

[TedRamAirII]

If the poly locks still ended up at different heights, I want to know why?

[chiphead]

The refrigerator bulb in my brain came on today. In one of those videos, there was tons of oil coming out of the #2 and #4 cylinder pushrods, and not much out of the #6 or 8 pushrods. I know I mentioned letting it run longer, but if you did and the same thing kept up, something may be amiss with the lifters.

How does the metering work in those lifters? Does the lifter control the flow of oil to the pushrod with a fixed orifice or a disc? Is there a chance one of those lifters is bypassing too much oil, and not pumping up correctly? Meaning, all the oil is going right out the pushrod, and not staying trapped in the lifter body to take the slack out of the plunger?

I know its a long shot, but if you don't find anything else, then you would have to look at the lifters. This is after tie bar contact, lifter bore condition and valvetrain geometry is verified.

Here is some lifter 101 for reference:

http://www.victor-aviation.com/Hydra...on_Matched.php

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2RZqIETIpQ

[Va68goat]

Steelcityfirebird,

The pushrods are not really bent..more like "warped". We ran them across a piece of glass and they wobbled slightly. You can't even tell theyre warped by just looking at it. I don't have a rev limiter installed. The car has less than 100 miles on it and it's been driven lightly. It was suggested to me that I install a rev limiter through. We haven't noticed any broken valve springs. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about cars to even begin to try and figure this out on my own. The friends that have worked on this car are very good with Pontiacs and cars in general. Though there has been a few guys working on this car, they're all on the same page so there really isn't any confusion.

Chiphead,

I hope we don't have to take the heads off. I'm staying in touch with Paul trying to diagnosis the problems. I have to admit, it's getting frustrating because this car should be on the road but I certainly don't want to continue to drive this car with these issues. Waiting for friends to find time to diagnose the issues with my motor when they have their own cars to worry about is getting old..fast.

Hopefully we'll get some time to work on the car this weekend.

[Va68goat]

After months of testing and diagnosing, we're finally going to replace the lifters. Paul installed Hylift - Johnson lifters with a part number A-234S. By running that part number, this is pretty much what I find.

https://www.pluswhole.top/pontiac-ra...7-p-13615.html
For some reason, the link isn't showing the "S" on the part number. Paul has confirmed the part number ending with an "S".

Is anyone familiar with these lifters or know where I can find them? I checked Butlers but the part numbers are different. If anyone can provide another alternative to these lifters that I have or know where I can find the lifters that Paul used, I would appreciate it. It seems that Paul can't locate another set of these lifters either.

Joe

[chiphead]

The part number changed according to Paul K. Now the lifters are only available with the E suffix, which is pressure fed pin oiling. It makes sense, since you want positive oil feed to the rollers. The S (slow bleed) and R (fast bleed) are still good PNs.

A-2347SE is the set you want, and is what I have.

I recently got a set from Paul K, who is an engine builder who posts here. However, I just did a search and the H-J website is down. Hopefully just a glitch.

If you want to use another brand, there are a few threads on here about HR lifters. They go into deep comparisons of the various designs.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Qty. Item Name Total
- + remove Pontiac Ram Air HO Retro Fit Johnson Hylift Hydraulic Roller lifters USA A-2347 Pontiac Ram Air HO Retro Fit Johnson Hylift Hydraulic Roller lifters USA A-2347 $703.84
$703.84
Sub-Total:

$0.00
Shipping (Shipping):

$657.94
Discount:

$45.90
Total:

I put 16 in my cart, $45.90 for a 16!!!!
Too good to be true.
I think thats a junk yard based on other items on the site.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

If the poly locks still ended up at different heights, I want to know why?

What he said!