[TAQuest]

No one around town has a piston stop. So I'm making one. Also making a bolt-on indicator.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by steve25

I come up with 9.47 to 1 comp even with leaving out the ring land clearance volume which would drop the compression even more!

PV=50.742
Head gasket volume , fel pro 1016, 9.4 CCs, .57336
Deck clearance .018", .2433
Valve notch volume, 6.7 CCs, .40888
Combustion chamber 74 CCs,=4.516

56.7089
---------- =9.47 to 1
5.9849

Anyone care to not use a computer program and get on a hand held calculator and back me up here?
Thanks in advance!

Steve,
No sure if I missed something, but using your numbers I get

56.48354
------------ = 9.8377 to 1
5.7154

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I have been following along here on the side lines. Maybe my thoughts will be of help/maybe not..

Compression between 9.4-9.7 is what my guess. Guys already have that narrowed down pretty close.

I think you are about ready to do a cam change only to be back were you started.

Cam timing is probably correct now. It was clearly wrong before. Odds of the indexing being off that much is pretty slim. Since you corrected that, and it runs worse now, it indicates to me the advanced cam timing was somehow nursing the engine problem along.

Are there pictures of the spark plugs anywhere on this thread? What are they? What heat range? Could it be the engine is wanting a plug with a colder heat range?

May I suggest checking this with a timing light would be a worth while and save you some greif. Get or barrow an adjustable light so you can check where the timing comes in at and the full advance. Then you can also tell if the light starts jumping around when the issues start to occur. Might help you track down module and pickup issues.

I have used that basic 204/214 cam in a ton of engines. We messed with advancing/retarding on one of them. You can retard it a bunch and still run good. Adding advance you find yourself walking around the car to see if someone hooked a trailer behind the car. But generally the adv/ret did not cause an engine miss, they just quit making power. The compression test looks to me like it was dead on where I would expect for the compression and the various cam timing check so far.

Anyways, hope you get it figured out. Lots of great advice going on already. Defineltly needs a better cam, but sure would be nice to find the issue first.
Jay

X2

Stan

[Steve C.]

I agree with STEELCITYFIREBIRD. If you have a spring off to check the installed height, take the spring to a shop and see what you have for seat and open pressure.

I'm nit picky, if it were me I'd do that first. Personally I would not trust those loosey-goosey stock Edelbrock valve springs !

.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

X2

Stan

Here's the working theory;

The cam obviously didn't work with the dots lined up that's why the guy that built it lined it up with the dots not lined up. So when I lined them up I just messed things up. So the cam was a problem from the git go because it would not work with the dots lined up. What else was wrong with it? Who knows?

Rather than fiddle around with what I have, why not just put the better cam in and set it all up properly so we know that the cam and everything associated with it is correct? Button it up and move forward?

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

I agree with STEELCITYFIREBIRD. If you have a spring off to check the installed height, take the spring to a shop and see what you have for seat and open pressure.

I'm nit picky, if it were me I'd do that first. Personally I would not trust those loosey-goosey stock Edelbrock valve springs !

.

The loosey gooses will work for now. I have no problem swapping them out later. It's easy. I know how to do it.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

You verified correct TDC ....piston to mark?

Each keyway has it's own dot that points up with the piston at TDC.

Pontiac crank keyways point to the first rod throw on the crank.

Wrong keyway and wrong dot used gets the crank off some 120° +/- in either direction.

Appears TAQuest has his crank just right. Fuel pump eccentric will point to the right with the engine timed on cyl #6 (dot to dot). Fuel pump eccentric would be pointed straight to the left if he turned the crank one turn (both dots up) and it would be timed on cyl #1.

The 4° keyways takes very little crank movement for the new dots to line up.
4° out of 360° ain't much.

Does appear he has things set right where they should be.

The not wanting to adjust/reset the carburetor now that the engine is in time doesn't make any sense to me. Cam "off" like it was would have had carb adjustments "way off" for the engine to idle like it did.

Haven't seen any comments on how the engine runs now if you rev it up. Just that it wont idle now.

Clay

[ta man]

Cam looks installed dot to dot. So if you rotate the engine to 10 degrees BTDC is your rotor pointing at number 1?
I can bet it points at 2. If the vacuum can is jammed against the intake and can't move anymore that may be a clue.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

Here's the working theory;

The cam obviously didn't work with the dots lined up that's why the guy that built it lined it up with the dots not lined up. So when I lined them up I just messed things up. So the cam was a problem from the git go because it would not work with the dots lined up. What else was wrong with it? Who knows?

Rather than fiddle around with what I have, why not just put the better cam in and set it all up properly so we know that the cam and everything associated with it is correct? Button it up and move forward?

I believe that when you moved the cam one tooth it was in more correctly than before, but the engine would not run. If you install a new cam and still have that problem (with the engine not wanting to running), you could wipe the new cam before you can get it figured out.

Stan

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Each keyway has it's own dot that points up with the piston at TDC.

Pontiac crank keyways point to the first rod throw on the crank.

Wrong keyway and wrong dot used gets the crank off some 120° +/- in either direction.

Appears TAQuest has his crank just right. Fuel pump eccentric will point to the right with the engine timed on cyl #6 (dot to dot). Fuel pump eccentric would be pointed straight to the left if he turned the crank one turn (both dots up) and it would be timed on cyl #1.

The 4° keyways takes very little crank movement for the new dots to line up.
4° out of 360° ain't much.

Does appear he has things set right where they should be.

The not wanting to adjust/reset the carburetor now that the engine is in time doesn't make any sense to me. Cam "off" like it was would have had carb adjustments "way off" for the engine to idle like it did.

Haven't seen any comments on how the engine runs now if you rev it up. Just that it wont idle now.

Clay

I will go though this again piece by piece to bring you along but I'm just wasting time typing.

I know timing. I have been messing with timing for how long now? 30 plus years my friend! So have a little confidence in my ability to time an engine.

I know how the engine timed with the dots NOT lined up. It timed normally. Get it close so it will start and idle then fine tune it. Works every single time. I have a bunch of old cars and trucks. They are all timed like that and they are run great.

When I lined up the dots and tried to time it I could get it to start but it would not fine tune. The timing was always off no matter how much I fine tuned it.
After a half an hour of fine adjusting I knew the move I made was wrong.

Can you see now that lining the dots up was the wrong move?

Thanks for your help.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I believe that when you moved the cam one tooth it was in more correctly than before

Stan

Why would you think that? That would mean that they guy who built it messed up and so did I when I switched it. How about believing we both knew what we were doing and something is wrong beside us being numbskulls?

The simple answer is the guy who built the engine degreed the cam so it would be as close as possible to right, since lining up the dots is wrong for what is installed. And I was dead wrong to line them up, but I wanted a quick fix.

Now I'm taking the long road around the whole cam problem because it's the right thing to do right now.

[TAQuest]

Piston stop;

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0MMW...r_Township,_MI

[TAQuest]

For enquiring minds;

Why did the engine run better when the dots were NOT lined up? Might be a clue to unlocking the problem I had with the rpm wall.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

Why would you think that? That would mean that they guy who built it messed up and so did I when I switched it. How about believing we both knew what we were doing and something is wrong beside us being numbskulls?

The simple answer is the guy who built the engine degreed the cam so it would be as close as possible to right, since lining up the dots is wrong for what is installed. And I was dead wrong to line them up, but I wanted a quick fix.

Now I'm taking the long road around the whole cam problem because it's the right thing to do right now.

I am basing that on what at this point the group (me included) seems to think the CR is (9.7:1), and from what cam specs you posted. With the cam moved one tooth, the cranking compression is what I think it should be for that cam installed around a 105 ICL with that CR.

Stan

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

I will go though this again piece by piece to bring you along but I'm just wasting time typing.

I know timing. I have been messing with timing for how long now? 30 plus years my friend! So have a little confidence in my ability to time an engine.

I know how the engine timed with the dots NOT lined up. It timed normally. Get it close so it will start and idle then fine tune it. Works every single time. I have a bunch of old cars and trucks. They are all timed like that and they are run great.

When I lined up the dots and tried to time it I could get it to start but it would not fine tune. The timing was always off no matter how much I fine tuned it.
After a half an hour of fine adjusting I knew the move I made was wrong.

Can you see now that lining the dots up was the wrong move?

Thanks for your help.

Cam advanced like it was the engine didn't run right at all except for idle.

Cam advanced like it was had valve events happening way too early.

Advanced valve events had the engine pulling 2~3 times the idle vacuum it does now.

Doesn't matter how much you "fine tune" ignition timing, with the distributor, when the carburetor adjustment for idle can't even be close to right.

Your first timing chain pic showed crank gear was off at least two teeth. That is not a degreed cam it was some ones mistake. As posted earlier...Does appear that you have it right now.

Clay

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Cam advanced like it was the engine didn't run right at all except for idle.

Cam advanced like it was had valve events happening way too early.

Advanced valve events had the engine pulling 2~3 times the idle vacuum it does now.

Doesn't matter how much you "fine tune" ignition timing, with the distributor, when the carburetor adjustment for idle can't even be close to right.

Your first timing chain pic showed crank gear was off at least two teeth. That is not a degreed cam it was some ones mistake. As posted earlier...Does appear that you have it right now.

Clay

Clay,
Do you really think that someone who assembled this whole engine from a kit couldn't get the dots lined up? Seriously? You are very stubborn.

On top of that you think that something as simple as 'idle' was stopping me from tuning it? I would be inside the car with my foot on the gas. Not just letting the idle screw do everything.

[TAQuest]

Enough arguing.

If you want to help then help me install the new cam and set everything up right. That's what it's all about. Not someone being right or wrong.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

Clay,
Do you really think that someone who assembled this whole engine from a kit couldn't get the dots lined up? Seriously? You are very stubborn.

On top of that you think that something as simple as 'idle' was stopping me from tuning it? I would be inside the car with my foot on the gas. Not just letting the idle screw do everything.

If that is the case (and I don't, I believe the cam was installed wrong) then why was the engine done at 3200 RPM?

Worth saying again

Definitely needs a better cam, but sure would be nice to find the issue first.

Stan

[HO Kenny]

Without knowing where true DTC is, you don’t know if your timing marks on your harmonic balancer are correct, you can’t know that your cam to crank timing is correct, EVEN NOW! Using a degree wheel will not help if you don’t know true TDC.
If you can’t use a timing light to set a known starting point you cannot do proper troubleshooting.
Unless there is something wrong with the camshaft or timing chain set, or the way it was installed, switching them won’t solve the problem.
Chasing our own tails is only fun for dogs!
It’s possible, but not likely, you have multiple problems. The previous owner may have put the cam timing out on purpose to mitigate another problem.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by HO Kenny

Without knowing where true DTC is, you don’t know if your timing marks on your harmonic balancer are correct, you can’t know that your cam to crank timing is correct, EVEN NOW! Using a degree wheel will not help if you don’t know true TDC.
If you can’t use a timing light to set a known starting point you cannot do proper troubleshooting.
Unless there is something wrong with the camshaft or timing chain set, or the way it was installed, switching them won’t solve the problem.
Chasing our own tails is only fun for dogs!
It’s possible, but not likely, you have multiple problems. The previous owner may have put the cam timing out on purpose to mitigate another problem.

Already made the piston stop this morning. See pic. TDC is no problem at all.