[Formulajones]

Paul could explain it to you better than anyone, he built it and knows more about the details and differences between the two dyno sessions.

[proximity_alrt]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Paul could explain it to you better than anyone, he built it and knows more about the details and differences between the two dyno sessions.

Yes, pretty much this. Do you have a stall in the car? That would be part of the consideration in tuning it I would think.

[Va68goat]

I also forgot to mention that the last time we pulled the motor (Right before it went back to Arizona), we noticed damage to the oil pump shaft (Witness marks- I posted the pictures earlier). We switched the oil pump and the oil pump shaft, installed the motor again and it made the same noise.

Since the problem was discovered, all the diagnosis that we did, all the parts switched out were run by Paul first. My fear is that there is something majorly wrong with the motor. I know I'm very inexperienced with cars but I just feel that something is really wrong with this motor. I just think something was missed after it blew up on the dyno. When I sent the motor back and Paul found the bad distributor bushing he said and posted that the motor looked "great" after he disassembled it. He posted pictures of the bearings as well. Next thing I know, I'm told that Paul missed all the damage to the piston rings, bearings, crankshaft and the block needed a light honing. I think as easily as he missed "The recent damage", he could have missed the real problem. The oil pickup tube was not welded. That's something else that was "missed". From I'm told, that's a pretty standard thing to do and most guys do that because of the potential of that happening to these Pontiac motors.

I think it's the same noise. It may sound a little different because one video was in a garage and the other one was outside but in person...it's the same. My buddy who has been building Pontiac motors for over 37 years agrees. He's the guy that's been working on my car!

August 5th 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeOqYtY0Dng

July 14th 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To57VTU11xM

Originally I was told that it would be too difficult to hear that noise in the dyno room but now....I'm told the motor was not making any noise on the dyno. This last time on the dyno was allegedly the 4th time it was run on the dyno!

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

I also forgot to mention that the last time we pulled the motor (Right before it went back to Arizona), we noticed damage to the oil pump shaft (Witness marks- I posted the pictures earlier). We switched the oil pump and the oil pump shaft, installed the motor again and it made the same noise.

Since the problem was discovered, all the diagnosis that we did, all the parts switched out were run by Paul first. My fear is that there is something majorly wrong with the motor. I know I'm very inexperienced with cars but I just feel that something is really wrong with this motor. I just think something was missed after it blew up on the dyno. When I sent the motor back and Paul found the bad distributor bushing he said and posted that the motor looked "great" after he disassembled it. He posted pictures of the bearings as well. Next thing I know, I'm told that Paul missed all the damage to the piston rings, bearings, crankshaft and the block needed a light honing. I think as easily as he missed "The recent damage", he could have missed the real problem. The oil pickup tube was not welded. That's something else that was "missed". From I'm told, that's a pretty standard thing to do and most guys do that because of the potential of that happening to these Pontiac motors.

I think it's the same noise. It may sound a little different because one video was in a garage and the other one was outside but in person...it's the same. My buddy who has been building Pontiac motors for over 37 years agrees. He's the guy that's been working on my car!

August 5th 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeOqYtY0Dng

July 14th 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To57VTU11xM

Originally I was told that it would be too difficult to hear that noise in the dyno room but now....I'm told the motor was not making any noise on the dyno. This last time on the dyno was allegedly the 4th time it was run on the dyno!

You're leaving out some key details. The way that discussion went....

Paul only said that on initial tear down the bearings and rings looked okay because they still obviously had a light oil film on them. It wasn't until after he ran the parts through the washer where they could be inspected closer did he see the small particles imbedded in the bearings. The moly was flaked off the rings from detonation because the fact that the bushing was shot in the distributor jacked the timing all over the place, something that should have been easily found as I mentioned very early on in this thread.

So this wasn't something that Paul missed, it was something discovered upon cleaning and further inspection.

Jeff did not want to let this engine back out the door with bearings and rings like that, because that's not what you paid for, and I commend Jeff for that, stand up guy. However, the damage that occurred I think we can all agree did not start with Paul or Jeff. So you can't expect them to eat the bill on parts. They did however cover all labor and paid for most of your $1500 carb as well. More than fair.

[HWYSTR455]

I'm thinking along the lines of something with the ignition, be it a bad coil, incorrect wiring, timing, or in that area.

Another thought is a vacuum leak which is causing a gross lean condition.

The initial rough running as it started is an indicator, and THAT sounds like ignition to me.

I'm going to try to swing by there over the next week and take a look, bring a spare coil, and do a few checks. Thinking of isolating the ignition by going directly to the batt, and a new coil, leaving everything else disconnected. Will remove all the vacuum lines and plug them too.

.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I'm thinking along the lines of something with the ignition, be it a bad coil, incorrect wiring, timing, or in that area.

Another thought is a vacuum leak which is causing a gross lean condition.

The initial rough running as it started is an indicator, and THAT sounds like ignition to me.

I'm going to try to swing by there over the next week and take a look, bring a spare coil, and do a few checks. Thinking of isolating the ignition by going directly to the batt, and a new coil, leaving everything else disconnected. Will remove all the vacuum lines and plug them too.

.

Pick up a 3/8ths line maker and carry drill, bits and taps when you go.

Close fit on the TII but there is enough room to run the PCV to front center plenum.

Lean back-fire from #1 cylinder would be expected the way the PCV is hooked up now. It would also have a nervous skip at idle.

Clay

[Va68goat]

Well...Here's the real deal. I never mentioned this before for several reasons. 1) I didn't want to embarrass Paul because I know how well respected he is in here but I also noticed he never mentioned this either on the thread. 2) Another reason I never mentioned this is because I wanted to keep an open line of communication with him and I didn't want to do anything to make him mad while I needed to make this motor right. At this point. I just need this motor right. It has cost me a fortune. I just paid basically 1/3 of what I originally paid for the motor just to get it back.

When Paul had the motor completed the first time, it went on the dyno for the FIRST time. While on the dyno, the motor blew up. Paul said the pickup tube fell into the pan which caused a "Vortex" and the motor blew up. Paul said he did not weld the pickup tube. Paul did weld the pickup when he rebuilt the motor (after it blew up). When it blew up on the dyno, Paul said he had to replace the crankshaft, bearings and had to replace 2 connecting rods. He said he had a hard time finding a company to sell him 2 connecting rods but eventually found a company to sell him just 2.

After the blown motor was rebuilt, Paul sent it to the dyno again. Paul wasn't present for the dyno but a rear main seal was discovered. Paul fixed the rear main seal leak and the motor was sent to my house. I wish Paul would have been present at the dyno considering it just went through a catastrophic failure. When we started it and posted the video here that is when the knocking noise was discovered.

I went through almost two years of diagnosis on the motor and $1,900 in parts, fluids, tools and having the heads inspected. Just to recap here is what we did.

- Switched the rockers out (Went with Crowers)
- Pulled the motor, discovered the witness marks on the windage tray and only one washer as spacers when I was told that he usually uses two washers.
- Changed out the pushrods
- Changed out the lifters
- Had the cylinder heads inspected (Checked out good)
- Went to a thicker oil (Didn't make a difference)
- Pulled the converter back on several different occasions (Still heard the noise)
- Realized the flex plate was the only thing that wasn't new or rebuilt. Switched the flex plate...noise is still present.
- Motor was sent to Arizona. Paul discovered the bad distributor bushing and said when he broke the motor down, everything looked great and even posted pictures of clean bearings. Jeff looked at the motor after Paul and said the bearings were bad, piston rings were bad, crankshaft needed to be polished the the block needed a light honing. Paul sent the distributor to MSD and they rebuilt it. I sent Paul a new polymer gear for the rebuilt distributor. It was sent to the dyno where I received the weird dyno sheet with a date of Oct of 2018 (the motor was at my house in Oct of 2018). Paul posted a new video on his Youtube page of the dyno run. The video was taken from inside the booth.

This has gone on long enough. I actually spoke to Jeff last night and he was cool with me. He told me to concentrate on what is on the car NOW but was not used on the dyno. He suggested that we take a closer look at the fuel pump. I know the car was idling pretty rough in the newest video. We didn't play with the timing and and the carb wasn't touched at that time. After taking the video, we started it up again and played with the idle a little bit. It didn't make a difference...the noise was still there. Jeff was very adamant that the "Knocking or ticking" noise is not the same. Me and and buddy are just as certain that it sounds the same. Believe me, at this point of the game..I hear that "Knocking / ticking" noise in my sleep. It sounds identical to what was going on before.

I don't want to spend the next 2 years diagnosing this car. I can't afford to again pay for the motor to be shipped to Arizona, pay Koerner Racing Engine a 3rd time to look at this motor. If anyone has any ideas...feel free to share it. I think we can all learn a little something from sharing some knowledge

[Va68goat]

promptcritical,

The heads checked out good. At that point, I was still communicating with Paul and asked him if it would be worth it to have the heads inspected and he agreed. Paul spoke with the guy from the machine shop and Paul explained where it needed to be. The guys gave the heads a clean bill of health and even commented on Pauls work once they understood from Paul what spring pressure needed to be.