[Va68goat]

mgarblik,
The problem with the dyno is that I have received two different texts from Paul regarding if the noise could be heard in the dyno room. When the knocking noise was first discovered he sent a text and said there is no way he could have heard that knocking noise. Before he received the motor back, he sent me a text that he would have heard the knocking noise. When he dyno'd it this last time he said he would have heard it because 5 people were in the room and he wasn't wearing ear protection and he didn't hear the knock at idle. We can't assume anything regarding what could be heard in the dyno room. Apparently Paul made a comment on this thread about posting a video of my motor on the dyno, at idle but it hasn't been posted yet.

chiphead,
I've limited the cooks in the kitchen this time. I really don't want to mention the compression tests until we verify it with another gauge and a charged battery. I think that would be fair.

Formulajones,
I don't want to upset Mike or anyone else but I've been the one listening to this motor knock for over two years. I think the reason he thinks it subsided at 12 degrees is because it was idling around 1000-1100 rpm's. Ive been down that road of getting excited to hear "less" knocking but as soon as you bring it to normal idle, it's the exact same knock as before. I don't have to know motors to hear the same knock that has kept me off the road for 2 years.

mgarblik,
The fuel pump. That was blocked off and run off the fuel in the bowls. It knocked. We pulled the converter..it knocked. The knocking was consistent with the Street Avenger carb and the Jeff Koerner carb. We tried new wires and distributor..it knocked. Again, I don't know if the dyno room is conclusive if the knocking could be heard or not. Here are the pictures of my motor when it was on run 2 of the 4 times on the dyno. These pictures are when numbers were taken during the run. The top picture is the most recent one. I know this because it has 2 air breathers. I didn't do that until after I got the motor the first time. The bottom one is with headers even though it was known I was using manifolds. I assume it was done to get better numbers and to see how much more headers would give me.

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, it 'seems' it was less of a knock, but when I heard the vid, it sounded the same. In the vids, it's more pronounced than in person, or at least that's what I recall. And I could have been mistaken, or wishful!

I really don't mind if people prove me wrong, I'm not that sensitive of a person, this is a very lucrative situation, and I'm just trying to check boxes off. I just feel there are still some unanswered questions is all, certainly not trying to say anyone is 'wrong'. It's frustrating to get second hand info too, sure the guys that were working on it would explain better.

Like I mentioned before, the vacuum gauge shows a flutter, and it coincides with the miss. I still feel that is key, and that there is some type of abnormal combustion, ignition issue, lean issue, or something. But that's just a gut feeling, other than the obvious miss, and the vacuum reading, there's nothing else that in my mind can cause that miss/vacuum issue.

.

[HWYSTR455]

This video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25qdxORqRsI&t=1s

The first 45 seconds, they are revving the engine to like 3500, and turning the dizzy several times. That's what I'm questioning. What's the purpose of that? They rev, he reads the timing, they let it idle down, and turn the dizzy without checking the timing before they rev it again. Then the next vid, they go to start it, and it lugs during cranking. That to me says too much initial timing.

I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me. And I'm looking at the coil, and the same ignition 12v wire is on there, which has a spliced wire in it.

.

[HWYSTR455]

Both the vids in post #801 are already after I switched the wire back from the direct batt one to the original ignition one, and had turned the idle speed down while it was not running. I know because I laid the wire across the engine and throttle cable over to the batt.

I dunno, I'm just trying pointing out stuff that's different from when it was on the dyno is all. There was one vid that was before the ones that were posted. And I honestly can't remember the sound from that vid, I've watched a bunch back to back and just can't tell/remember.

.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

With the PCV plumbed in the middle of #1 intake runner....It's going to have a lean miss. The closest idle mixture screw would have to be backed out for it to hit and would make #3 run rich. Balancing act at best. No even turns on mixture screws on front. At least till a fitting gets put in front plenum.

Clay

[MrParty]

I don't know much but why not put the engine on a run stand? That would eliminate anything with the car and would make it easier to get around and hear things. I understand it's more $$ unless you can borrow one but it would help eliminate things. It would also tell you if it's 100% the engine.

[Pronto Poncho]

Originally Posted by MrParty

I don't know much but why not put the engine on a run stand? That would eliminate anything with the car and would make it easier to get around and hear things. I understand it's more $$ unless you can borrow one but it would help eliminate things. It would also tell you if it's 100% the engine.

Definitely in the Motor.

The engine was run with the following removed. All belts, Fuel pump and torque converter completely disconnected. It was sitting there Virgin on the frame without anything attached. Unfortunately it did not make any difference.

It has been gone over with a mechanics stethoscope and run with valve covers off. With no change. Every possible test has been done to further evaluate the valve train with no results. The only signature picked up on the stethoscope was at the base of the distributer and the oil filter receiver.

In over 30 years of Pontiac engine experience this is the first time I have ever seen something like this that could not be easily identified.

[Va68goat]

DOC,
No...Jeff said he found someone to come take a look at the motor. I'm hoping thats going to happen. No plans for me to disassemble this motor at this time.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

Formulajones,
I don't want to upset Mike or anyone else but I've been the one listening to this motor knock for over two years. I think the reason he thinks it subsided at 12 degrees is because it was idling around 1000-1100 rpm's. Ive been down that road of getting excited to hear "less" knocking but as soon as you bring it to normal idle, it's the exact same knock as before. I don't have to know motors to hear the same knock that has kept me off the road for 2 years.

.

I think what you said right there is key. Normal idle. What you might consider normal may not be what a performance engine wants. Idling out of gear at 1,000-1100 rpm is actually very common if an engine has a camshaft with a fair amount of overlap for it's size. If I remember right you're running a fairly decent cam in this thing. Something in the 240's @ .050 is what I recall. That's not likely going to be a happy engine idling down at 600-700 rpm unless you are really sharp on tuning the idle circuits/emulsions and some other trickery.

My thought is that when Highway put the timing at 12 and had the engine idling at 1,000 and you heard less knock, it's probably because it was knocking less LOL You might want to pursue that route further.

[Va68goat]

64speed,
We're going to address the PCV but as you said, my friends and guys from the forum say that wont cause a knock but it will settle the idle.

68 461 Bird,
Paul felt that it wasn't a good idea to send the motor back for something silly. He spoke with everyone that worked on the motor and suggested parts to replace. $1,900 later in diagnosing and parts and an additional $2,575 to Paul, I have the same knocking noise as I did before. Take a look at this picture. Could this knocking noise be heard without mufflers? I would imagine not but I'm still waiting for Paul to post the video of my motor running at idle

[68 461 Bird]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

64speed,
We're going to address the PCV but as you said, my friends and guys from the forum say that wont cause a knock but it will settle the idle.

68 461 Bird,
Paul felt that it wasn't a good idea to send the motor back for something silly. He spoke with everyone that worked on the motor and suggested parts to replace. $1,900 later in diagnosing and parts and an additional $2,575 to Paul, I have the same knocking noise as I did before. Take a look at this picture. Could this knocking noise be heard without mufflers? I would imagine not but I'm still waiting for Paul to post the video of my motor running at idle

Never thought a knocking noise was silly. I saw that picture and thought low budget dyno. I saw Butlers dyno room when he set it up and thought that was a high end dyno. He did have turbo mufflers if I remember correctly. I don't know how he could hear anything with that exhaust going into an open pipe.
I read a comment that Paul gave up on the thread because he didn't like the direction it went. You would think he would want to save his reputation and do what it takes to make a customer happy after taking so much money from you.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 68 461 Bird

You would think he would want to save his reputation and do what it takes to make a customer happy after taking so much money from you.

Oh if you only knew what's been going on off the forum for the last year and half you would understand Paul's point of view. Unfortunately all that's been shown here is Joe's point of view, dragging Paul through the mud. Paul has held himself to a much higher standard and has already went above and beyond what any other business owner would do in a situation like this. Most would have told Joe to pound salt long before all this. Paul doesn't have to worry, his customer base is doing just fine. Doesn't really matter what Joe thinks or says. He would benefit more proceeding to diagnose what Highway started and stop pointing fingers. But it'll take someone on Joe's side of things to tell him that before he'll comprehend it

[72projectbird]

Originally Posted by 68 461 Bird

I read a comment that Paul gave up on the thread because he didn't like the direction it went. You would think he would want to save his reputation and do what it takes to make a customer happy after taking so much money from you.

You would think that be the case. Says something, doesn't it?