[Formulajones]

There are reputable shops around most areas. It helps tremendously to get out to car events, cruises, and hang around like minded people. The dragstrip is the best place, and just see who is using who.

That's how I found Paul. A forum member reached out to me, we talked, met in person, and discussed why Paul was better. When you live in the 3rd or 4th largest city in the nation with nearly 5 million people, in a classic car rich state and machine shops at every turn, and yet drive to another town for machine work, it says something. After I had tried a couple of shops in Phoenix, I went to Paul and never looked back. I could go on and on about why and what etc...

It's not that hard to look up accomplishments as well. Engine Master Challenge usually has the same big players at the top. Shops like BES, or Jon Kaase. Paul has been in that event as well. Other fields of accomplishments that says a lot about shops too if one cares to look.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

There are reputable shops around most areas. It helps tremendously to get out to car events, cruises, and hang around like minded people. The dragstrip is the best place, and just see who is using who.

That's how I found Paul. A forum member reached out to me, we talked, met in person, and discussed why Paul was better. When you live in the 3rd or 4th largest city in the nation with nearly 5 million people, in a classic car rich state and machine shops at every turn, and yet drive to another town for machine work, it says something. After I had tried a couple of shops in Phoenix, I went to Paul and never looked back. I could go on and on about why and what etc...

It's not that hard to look up accomplishments as well. Engine Master Challenge usually has the same big players at the top. Shops like BES, or Jon Kaase. Paul has been in that event as well. Other fields of accomplishments that says a lot about shops too if one cares to look.

Unfortunately that doesn't always work for everyone. While Colorado certainly isn't devoid of Pontiac enthusiasts, or car culture in general, I've sadly not had the same experience here.

I can pick almost any car show or event in the northern Colorado region and there's a high likelihood I'll be the soul Pontiac in the bunch.

The Pontiac guys I have met are great, but we just don't really have the options, torqhead being chief among those gents.

The machine shop that I'm about 80% certain built my shortblock doesn't have a reputation for quality, or being any more than a chevy circle track outfit. That said, my engine has been dead reliable, even after I've had my grubby hands in it.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Unfortunately that doesn't always work for everyone. While Colorado certainly isn't devoid of Pontiac enthusiasts, or car culture in general, I've sadly not had the same experience here.

I can pick almost any car show or event in the northern Colorado region and there's a high likelihood I'll be the soul Pontiac in the bunch.

The Pontiac guys I have met are great, but we just don't really have the options, torqhead being chief among those gents.

The machine shop that I'm about 80% certain built my shortblock doesn't have a reputation for quality, or being any more than a chevy circle track outfit. That said, my engine has been dead reliable, even after I've had my grubby hands in it.

Don't necessarily have to find a Pontiac specific shop, and your engine is an example of that. Even though done at a place with a chevy circle track reputation, it's been a great engine for you as you said.
I'm not familiar with the Colorado scene but I know what you mean about Pontiacs. That's pretty much the scenario anywhere you go. Pontiacs are sort of the low man on the totem pole. Even in our car rich state where there are literally thousands of classics on any given weekend doing an event somewhere, Pontiacs are still a minority. Chevy, Ford and Chrysler are the big players.
That doesn't mean however we still can't find a good machine shop. Pontiacs aren't that different from any other build and respond to power upgrades in a similar way. I didn't go to Paul because he just happens to be a Pontiac nut. Actually the first engine he did for me was a BBC. And his partner Jeff I believe is more of a Ford guy. But the 2 of them together build HP with anything they touch. Actually they do a bunch of the Nascar SW Tour series engines out here, making screaming power with high strung small block chevys, and Jeff was building carbs for the Nascar cup guys up until they went fuel injection. Yeah, all the millions Nascar has, with all their engineers, and they turned to Jeff all the way out here in Arizona for carbs. They also tinker in NHRA stock eliminator builds for a few guys with various brand engines. Paul just happens to love Pontiacs as most of us do here. But he builds all engines and gives each one the same treatment.
Dad went to Tony Bischoff for his last Pontiac build. Tony isn't a Pontiac guy per say, but he has done a lot of work behind the scenes for guys like McCarty developing RAV heads, and has won the engine master challenge 5-6-7-8 times or what ever the number is, and has done that with various types of engines. So he builds power with anything. Dad couldn't be happier with the outcome of his engine and it has done more than he expected.

[Formulajones]

Speaking of Colorado, the fellow I'm building this Firebird for, used to race dirt modifieds, (I may not have the class name right) and he was from that area at one time I believe and raced all over Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona etc...
He had mentioned to me in the past he used to have an outfit in Colorado do his engine work, albeit SBC stuff of course for that type of racing, but he mentioned how good the work was and the excellent power those engines made. I don't remember the name but I could ask John the name of the shop if interested.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Speaking of Colorado, the fellow I'm building this Firebird for, used to race dirt modifieds, (I may not have the class name right) and he was from that area at one time I believe and raced all over Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona etc...
He had mentioned to me in the past he used to have an outfit in Colorado do his engine work, albeit SBC stuff of course for that type of racing, but he mentioned how good the work was and the excellent power those engines made. I don't remember the name but I could ask John the name of the shop if interested.

GAM (Greeley Automotive Machine) at least at one time was big into circle track stuff. Bruce Yackey is the owner and is in the Colorado Motorsports Hall of Fame.

Possible it was him.

They don't have the greatest reputation, but I do know a couple people that have had engines built by them and none went kaboom or anything like that.

My engine is a bit of a mystery as it was built several months prior to my purchase of the car. The short block is the same, but I removed the heads and cam (#62's with a 280H) in favor of something that would live on pump gas.

The last time I spoke with GAM inquiring about pricing to have the short block rebuilt with forged rods and crank, the guy I talked to spent more time just telling me I should get rid of the 3.73's and go to a 3.08. There's reasons I want/need to get rid of the factory rods and crank, but this guy didn't really seem to care. I'm sure he was just trying to "save me some money." but it soured me on them for sure.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

GAM (Greeley Automotive Machine) at least at one time was big into circle track stuff. Bruce Yackey is the owner and is in the Colorado Motorsports Hall of Fame.

Possible it was him.

They don't have the greatest reputation, but I do know a couple people that have had engines built by them and none went kaboom or anything like that.

My engine is a bit of a mystery as it was built several months prior to my purchase of the car. The short block is the same, but I removed the heads and cam (#62's with a 280H) in favor of something that would live on pump gas.

The last time I spoke with GAM inquiring about pricing to have the short block rebuilt with forged rods and crank, the guy I talked to spent more time just telling me I should get rid of the 3.73's and go to a 3.08. There's reasons I want/need to get rid of the factory rods and crank, but this guy didn't really seem to care. I'm sure he was just trying to "save me some money." but it soured me on them for sure.

I asked John, Robby McCabe was his engine guy out of Colorado Springs. Builds a lot of asphalt late model engines and stuff for the Denver track racers in late model and super stock, also built a lot of GM stuff for the Pikes Peak racers. John likes him and never had an issue with their engines. John got out of racing a few years back but believes the name of the shop was McCabe Motorsports.

[promptcritical]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

GAM (Greeley Automotive Machine) at least at one time was big into circle track stuff. Bruce Yackey is the owner and is in the Colorado Motorsports Hall of Fame.

Possible it was him.

They don't have the greatest reputation, but I do know a couple people that have had engines built by them and none went kaboom or anything like that.

My engine is a bit of a mystery as it was built several months prior to my purchase of the car. The short block is the same, but I removed the heads and cam (#62's with a 280H) in favor of something that would live on pump gas.

The last time I spoke with GAM inquiring about pricing to have the short block rebuilt with forged rods and crank, the guy I talked to spent more time just telling me I should get rid of the 3.73's and go to a 3.08. There's reasons I want/need to get rid of the factory rods and crank, but this guy didn't really seem to care. I'm sure he was just trying to "save me some money." but it soured me on them for sure.

Bruce Yackey is still around CNS and is fast. He’s always been fast. I think his kid is running fast too. Bruce ran second to Jerry Robertson’s kid (Darren I think is his name). I didn’t know he was a motor builder. He builds fast cars. That’s a pretty strong late model division. Robby McCabe built a lot of motors up, that way and a lot of the old USLMA touring division motors. Mostly SB Chevy stuff....pretty serious motors. Never saw anything he did except for those types of motors. We never had a problem power wise or with dependability. The dirt late model motors we built in Albuquerque. So back to the thread, we used kind of a remote builder (6 hours or so) on purpose to get a guy we liked to work with with a good reputation.

[Formulajones]

I hinted at this 64speed in post 13. I don't like to do this to someone on a public forum but since you're going to be the way you're being, I'll lay it out.

Paul did the cam for you....yes, but your budget constraints sending payments of $5 to $10 a week for a camshaft is just not the way most vendors will or can conduct business. They simply can't conduct business that way and pay the bills. It took you months to pay the camshaft off. And you wanted Paul to build the entire engine?? It was some of those reasons why Paul told you that you would be better off finding someone else to build your engine.

And you can think what you want but you are completely wrong about Paul and Jeff. This forum had nothing to do with Paul flying out and fixing that engine. It simply took Joe to come to his senses and calm down, talk rationally and come up with a reasonable game plan. Paul and Jeff stand behind their work, and are very easy people to deal with. I've seen it first hand, I know the guys on a personal level. There is no way anyone on this forum has any right to judge someone's character without meeting someone in person first, and anything otherwise is just opinion, nothing else. Most that want to talk smack is just that, key board heroes that have no idea what a person is like. That entire thread was a lot of BS from people that didn't know the situation or the people involved. Some look for help and like to help, that's fine and what this forum is for, but 50% of that thread should have been tossed.

[Va68goat]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I hinted at this 64speed in post 13. I don't like to do this to someone on a public forum but since you're going to be the way you're being, I'll lay it out.

Paul did the cam for you....yes, but your budget constraints sending payments of $5 to $10 a week for a camshaft is just not the way most vendors will or can conduct business. They simply can't conduct business that way and pay the bills. It took you months to pay the camshaft off. And you wanted Paul to build the entire engine?? It was some of those reasons why Paul told you that you would be better off finding someone else to build your engine.

And you can think what you want but you are completely wrong about Paul and Jeff. This forum had nothing to do with Paul flying out and fixing that engine. It simply took Joe to come to his senses and calm down, talk rationally and come up with a reasonable game plan. Paul and Jeff stand behind their work, and are very easy people to deal with. I've seen it first hand, I know the guys on a personal level. There is no way anyone on this forum has any right to judge someone's character without meeting someone in person first, and anything otherwise is just opinion, nothing else. Most that want to talk smack is just that, key board heroes that have no idea what a person is like. That entire thread was a lot of BS from people that didn't know the situation or the people involved. Some look for help and like to help, that's fine and what this forum is for, but 50% of that thread should have been tossed.

Formulajones,
I came to my senses when I posted on the forum that the engine failed on the dyno. I was calm throughout because I knew I was right. A reasonable plan should have consisted of correctly fixing this engine after it failed on the dyno. Rod 5 & 6 had to be replaced and thats the same cylinder that had the collapsed piston skirt. Two machinists that don't know each other looked at this piston and said the piston was "smoothed out" to hide a defect or dent. Paul also said he couldn't stand installing pistons that were dirty and had carbon...thats funny, he didn't clean the dirty ones in my garage before he installed them. Matter of fact...he went straight to #5 when he had the heads off! I'm taking that piston to another machinist to get a 3rd opinion tomorrow.

Since I met Paul, I guess that qualifies me to give my opinion. He stayed at my house, I paid for meals and got to know him. He told me that he was going to pay me back the $2,575 that they charged me when I sent the motor back and they "fixed" it. He said he thought that was fair. Paul spoke to Jeff and I got a text from Paul that said Jeff agreed to give me my money back. I sent them a financial settlement agreement that protects BOTH of us and guess what...they went ghost. I've sent them a few texts and phone calls and not one return call or text. Also, apparently the manufacture of Icon pistons shows you where to take proper measurements of the piston. A little different than what Paul did! Thats another reason why none of us believe the engine was apart.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I hinted at this 64speed in post 13. I don't like to do this to someone on a public forum but since you're going to be the way you're being, I'll lay it out.

Paul did the cam for you....yes, but your budget constraints sending payments of $5 to $10 a week for a camshaft is just not the way most vendors will or can conduct business. They simply can't conduct business that way and pay the bills. It took you months to pay the camshaft off. And you wanted Paul to build the entire engine?? It was some of those reasons why Paul told you that you would be better off finding someone else to build your engine.

And you can think what you want but you are completely wrong about Paul and Jeff. This forum had nothing to do with Paul flying out and fixing that engine. It simply took Joe to come to his senses and calm down, talk rationally and come up with a reasonable game plan. Paul and Jeff stand behind their work, and are very easy people to deal with. I've seen it first hand, I know the guys on a personal level. There is no way anyone on this forum has any right to judge someone's character without meeting someone in person first, and anything otherwise is just opinion, nothing else. Most that want to talk smack is just that, key board heroes that have no idea what a person is like. That entire thread was a lot of BS from people that didn't know the situation or the people involved. Some look for help and like to help, that's fine and what this forum is for, but 50% of that thread should have been tossed.

The very definition of lip service.

[TCSGTO]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

There are reputable shops around most areas. It helps tremendously to get out to car events, cruises, and hang around like minded people. The dragstrip is the best place, and just see who is using who.

Exactly. I’m wasn’t saying take it to Joe Blows’ shop because it’s 10 minutes away. If you hang around the right places it’s not hard to find the right people. They can also steer you clear of places to avoid. The internet is ok for gathering info, but I know of a well known internet “guru” that payed hush money to keep shoddy work quiet.

I guess I’m lucky that there are at least 6 shops within 3 hours of here that are more than capable of machining,building,dyno testing a very stout street/strip Pontiac and most of them don’t have websites or post on forums. We’re much more fortunate than the Buick/Olds group, those guys are out there too but not in the same numbers.

The thing is they are mostly older guys and a lot of them won’t be around in 10 years. That’s probably true of most shops today.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TCSGTO

Exactly. I’m wasn’t saying take it to Joe Blows’ shop because it’s 10 minutes away. If you hang around the right places it’s not hard to find the right people. They can also steer you clear of places to avoid. The internet is ok for gathering info, but I know of a well known internet “guru” that payed hush money to keep shoddy work quiet.

I guess I’m lucky that there are at least 6 shops within 3 hours of here that are more than capable of machining,building,dyno testing a very stout street/strip Pontiac and most of them don’t have websites or post on forums. We’re much more fortunate than the Buick/Olds group, those guys are out there too but not in the same numbers.

The thing is they are mostly older guys and a lot of them won’t be around in 10 years. That’s probably true of most shops today.

I totally agree. I don't feel the internet is the best place. Lots of key board hero's. I've always felt in person, around the right people in the right places is best. It's why I like the dragstrip so much. No key board hero's there. It's where you put your money where your mouth is. If you spend enough time there, you figure out the regulars, who runs what, and which cars run hard on a regular basis.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by TCSGTO

Exactly. I’m wasn’t saying take it to Joe Blows’ shop because it’s 10 minutes away. If you hang around the right places it’s not hard to find the right people. They can also steer you clear of places to avoid. The internet is ok for gathering info, but I know of a well known internet “guru” that payed hush money to keep shoddy work quiet.

I guess I’m lucky that there are at least 6 shops within 3 hours of here that are more than capable of machining,building,dyno testing a very stout street/strip Pontiac and most of them don’t have websites or post on forums. We’re much more fortunate than the Buick/Olds group, those guys are out there too but not in the same numbers.

The thing is they are mostly older guys and a lot of them won’t be around in 10 years. That’s probably true of most shops today.

And lets not forget about the shops who post on forums that have shill posters playing up what great work they do. I know one builder in particular that me and 2 other guys caught and called out on another forum. May even be the same guy you are referring to.

[TCSGTO]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

And lets not forget about the shops who post on forums that have shill posters playing up what great work they do.

That’s why I don’t pay a lot of mind to forum, Facebook, Yelp, etc. reviews. If a guy/girl in a basement in Russia can hack your bank account how hard is it to falsely build, or ruin, a reputation on line?