[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

First thing is the original posters question, " Can old Pontiacs perform like LS motors?"

I don't own anything with an LS.

I was peeved at Jay Leno, when he disgraced his Toronado that GM built a big-block Olds and FWD; when he turned it into LS-powered RWD.

I don't spend much time looking at LS-powered anything at a car show. If it's new enough to have an LS from the factory, it's too expensive for me. If it's an LS transplant, I just don't care.

Having said all that, the LS is the best pushrod V-8 on the planet. It wipes the floor with most OHC V-8s as well. Six years of development head-start, plus The Magic of Overhead Cams, and the 2-valve Ford Modular got it's ass handed to it when GM put an LS in the first model-year vehicle. (MY 1991 vs. MY 1997)

Can old Pontiacs perform like an LS? No.

Hot-roddy folks tend to not really care about emissions control, or long-term (high-mileage) durability, and actually dislike smooth idle and a civilized exhaust noise; lots of stuff in the real world gets compromised to achieve big power numbers. Three letters and the Pontiac is out-of-the-running: NVH. GM doesn't have the luxury of ignoring all the inconvenient details and Government regulations.

Given equal electronic management the Pontiac can come close, cubic inch for cubic inch--but only when using heaps of aftermarket parts. The Pontiac might have a lower-rpm torque peak, and a lower-rpm horsepower peak. That might make it more usable with a conventional, non-overdrive transmission and "highway gears". Add in a 4-plus gear automatic or a 5--6 gear manual, and I'm not sure the benefit still exists.

GM did it the hard way--solid, magnificent engineering of the basic package coupled to electronic controls of a sort not even imagined during the 60s let alone the '50s (and still impractical when the last Pontiac engine rolled off the assembly line.) It's so far ahead of the "old Pontiac" that the only hope for the Pontiac is to utilize as much LS engineering as possible. This would start with the electronic controls. We'd need integrated accessories so the alternator and PS aren't flopping around on spindly stamped-steel brackets. We'd need a proper intake manifold suitable for fuel injection--assuming we aren't going "direct injection". And I don't know what we're going to do about engine weight.

Making a Pontiac perform "Like an LS" is like making ME perform like some top athlete. Yup, I can do it...if I have a big enough head start and I can ignore all the rules. Without a system of handicaps giving me unfair advantage, I don't stand a chance.

[Formulabruce]

Still find it AMAZING that folks talk about high horsepower like they USE it 100% of the time driving.
A 2bbl 1970 Pontiac 400 has MORE Torque at 2400 rpm ( in NORMAL driving range) , than a 6.0 LS LQ4 does from say 2005 .
A Pontiac with a HEI, and Cliff Built Q jet, an OD trans CAN compete in reliability, and fuel economy with an LS engine, IF built to do so.
BUt everyone talks about the "PEAKS" of HP, where we do NOT drive.
I will assume this question should be asked in 2 parts
1. Can a Pontiac built for DRAG racing compete with a LS built for same?, Dunno.
2. Can a Pontiac be built to be reliable and economical for a sporty driver to compete with an LS, OF course it can.
What do you think the PONTIAC Engine plant Engineers worked on when the 265 and 301 were all done?? YUP, Pontiac Built prototype performance Small block Chevy heads ... Yes Pontiac..

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

A 2bbl 1970 Pontiac 400 has MORE

More displacement than a 6.0 L (366) engine, and this is about the simplest method of increasing low end power. Duh.

HP exists off idle and at all RPM, the curve is what is important. LS dyno attached, the already strong power curve really liked the cam swap. I'll assure the passing power is insane.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/new-...-low-end-loss/

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

More displacement than a 6.0 L (366) engine, and this is about the simplest method of increasing low end power. Duh.

HP exists off idle and at all RPM, the curve is what is important. LS dyno attached, the already strong power curve really liked the cam swap. I'll assure the passing power is insane.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/new-...-low-end-loss/

Funny how all those braging rights are way above the normal driving range, and or economy range.
The original posters question >>"I am amazed by the power, fuel economy and driveability of LS motors. Why can't we do this to a legacy Pontiac 400 motor"
Anyone else on economy at 5 grand rpms?

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

I don't own anything with an LS.

I was peeved at Jay Leno, when he disgraced his Toronado that GM built a big-block Olds and FWD; when he turned it into LS-powered RWD.

I don't spend much time looking at LS-powered anything at a car show. If it's new enough to have an LS from the factory, it's too expensive for me. If it's an LS transplant, I just don't care.

Having said all that, the LS is the best pushrod V-8 on the planet. It wipes the floor with most OHC V-8s as well. Six years of development head-start, plus The Magic of Overhead Cams, and the 2-valve Ford Modular got it's ass handed to it when GM put an LS in the first model-year vehicle. (MY 1991 vs. MY 1997)

Can old Pontiacs perform like an LS? No.

Hot-roddy folks tend to not really care about emissions control, or long-term (high-mileage) durability, and actually dislike smooth idle and a civilized exhaust noise; lots of stuff in the real world gets compromised to achieve big power numbers. Three letters and the Pontiac is out-of-the-running: NVH. GM doesn't have the luxury of ignoring all the inconvenient details and Government regulations.

Given equal electronic management the Pontiac can come close, cubic inch for cubic inch--but only when using heaps of aftermarket parts. The Pontiac might have a lower-rpm torque peak, and a lower-rpm horsepower peak. That might make it more usable with a conventional, non-overdrive transmission and "highway gears". Add in a 4-plus gear automatic or a 5--6 gear manual, and I'm not sure the benefit still exists.

GM did it the hard way--solid, magnificent engineering of the basic package coupled to electronic controls of a sort not even imagined during the 60s let alone the '50s (and still impractical when the last Pontiac engine rolled off the assembly line.) It's so far ahead of the "old Pontiac" that the only hope for the Pontiac is to utilize as much LS engineering as possible. This would start with the electronic controls. We'd need integrated accessories so the alternator and PS aren't flopping around on spindly stamped-steel brackets. We'd need a proper intake manifold suitable for fuel injection--assuming we aren't going "direct injection". And I don't know what we're going to do about engine weight.

Making a Pontiac perform "Like an LS" is like making ME perform like some top athlete. Yup, I can do it...if I have a big enough head start and I can ignore all the rules. Without a system of handicaps giving me unfair advantage, I don't stand a chance.

New V8s, the twin overhead cam, 4 valve hemi in my Tundra would eat a "like" LS alive. They had to make special "pushrod 2 valve" Nasscar engines to compete. Downgrade the engine.My 5700lb 4 wheel drive truck has ran a 14.56 stock, as is just let the rear tires down to 20 lbs. put it in drive and hit the gas. If there was no electronics between the gas pedal and the throttle the truck would shred the tires at the slightest tap of the foot.
That engine is out of the LS league. The whole truck is overbuilt. 2 Tundra 6 speed auto tranys have made it to one MILLION miles and Toyota bought the trucks back.
GMs transmission's are garbage in comparison. On the road, very few vehicles, cars or trucks have more passing power. I work nights with a long straight drive home, more than one new Camaro has slowed down to a 20mph roll and hit the gas next to me. By the time I am in 4th gear they are gone and do not want anymore.

[pastry_chef]

Technology rocks.
http://www.freevalve.com/

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

New V8s, the twin overhead cam, 4 valve hemi in my Tundra would eat a "like" LS alive. They had to make special "pushrod 2 valve" Nasscar engines to compete. Downgrade the engine.My 5700lb 4 wheel drive truck has ran a 14.56 stock, as is just let the rear tires down to 20 lbs. put it in drive and hit the gas. If there was no electronics between the gas pedal and the throttle the truck would shred the tires at the slightest tap of the foot.
That engine is out of the LS league. The whole truck is overbuilt. 2 Tundra 6 speed auto tranys have made it to one MILLION miles and Toyota bought the trucks back.
GMs transmission's are garbage in comparison. On the road, very few vehicles, cars or trucks have more passing power. I work nights with a long straight drive home, more than one new Camaro has slowed down to a 20mph roll and hit the gas next to me. By the time I am in 4th gear they are gone and do not want anymore.

We are all dancing around the facts here and even stranger is ignoring them altogether. If your truck is hosing LS powered camaros it will more easily dust a traditional Pontiac powered camaro. Fact is the LS is eons ahead of the old stuff we are attached to. Pay me now or pay me later but I'm still getting paid.

[scott70]

I could put a nuclear power plant under the hood of my GTO ,,get 20 years of power,,go 0-60 in .5 seconds, whisper quiet and never have to change the plugs all for under $ 3000.00. .Would I if I could? Nope. Wouldn't put a electric motor in it either. There seems to be modernized add ons for the Pontiac that can make it start up like the modern FI, reliable electronic ignition compared to old points,roller cams for more power and turbos and superchargers for added power if that's your thing and still be reliable. If your wanting to take a junkyard 400 and put 40lbs of boost to it,go rip some 8's in the 1/4 like people say you can with a LS(lol) then you've drifted out of the street car section into the twilight zone,

[HWYSTR455]

In case some people's panties aren't already in a knot, Chevy showed a concept electric 'crate' powerplant in a C-10 pickup at SEMA. The E plant bolts to traditional transmissions, is modular in @400hp motors, and can technically be run in 5x configurations. (5x400=2000hp)


https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us.../1104-e10.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gOOcaEqTvA

So taking the thought of 'foreign' powerplants in traditional Pontiacs a step further, now what do you think? Something you would do?


.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

In case some people's panties aren't already in a knot

I like your style

And that is neat. Its one of those things where you would probably have to drive the thing for 30 years before you made up the cost in gas savings. If or when you can pull them out of wrecked trucks for cheap it would be a more exciting concept to me. Ive always been surprised there hasn't been a bigger push to make semis electric. They get no fuel economy, and at least look like they should be far more gross polluters than 10 passenger cars put together. I suspect it has more to do with not having the electrical infrastructure to make truck stops super charging stations than anything else.


We are for sure off topic but I think the original question has been answered so now its just the internet being the internet.

[scott70]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

I like your style

And that is neat. Its one of those things where you would probably have to drive the thing for 30 years before you made up the cost in gas savings. If or when you can pull them out of wrecked trucks for cheap it would be a more exciting concept to me. Ive always been surprised there hasn't been a bigger push to make semis electric. They get no fuel economy, and at least look like they should be far more gross polluters than 10 passenger cars put together. I suspect it has more to do with not having the electrical infrastructure to make truck stops super charging stations than anything else.


We are for sure off topic but I think the original question has been answered so now its just the internet being the internet.

Get Langer over here for a lock down.... ;-)

[avman]

Originally Posted by scott70

I could put a nuclear power plant under the hood of my GTO ,,get 20 years of power,,go 0-60 in .5 seconds, whisper quiet and never have to change the plugs...

ROFLMMFAO

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by P@blo

We are all dancing around the facts here and even stranger is ignoring them altogether. If your truck is hosing LS powered camaros it will more easily dust a traditional Pontiac powered camaro. Fact is the LS is eons ahead of the old stuff we are attached to. Pay me now or pay me later but I'm still getting paid.

What kind of cr@p is that ? The truck can run a mid 14 when the computer lets it run.
If the Camaro had a basic 12 second Pontiac 455 under the hood, it would run 12s and dust the truck. But if the Tundra engine was in a 3400lb car it would run 12 flat and drive tame as can be. Its what new tech does for you. I just wish they made big (4) cams and the rest of the hot rod stuff. I would like to get a wrecking yard Tundra engine and tranny and stick it in a old Chevy car(never a Pontiac) Toyota had a factory drag car with a Tundra engine with the factory 10lb boost blower and a small nitrous hit, ran 8s. If I bought the blower the Truck would have 504 HP and get good gas mileage as long as you kept your foot out of it.
The LS like the sbc has had years and years of big time money and factory development. That,s what its all about that. Money, big money and time. But the hard core Pontiac folks putting their hard earned money where their heart is has developed this long dead engine to the point we are at now. Olds, Buick ect fans dearly wish they had what we do. That is what makes us special.
At least a Pontiac in a Camaro would be cool. How many times has that been done to us ?
What is really, really lame is these so called Pontiac people sticking LS engines in their old Pontiacs.
Don''t let the door hit you where the sun don't shine I say. See ya, beat it.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Olds, Buick

Olds and Buick never had a Firebird or Camaro. This makes a huge difference in who and how many had interest over generations. So WHO actually determined what would get built at the factory and by what division?
There were enough birds built that these sporty cars need sporty engines decades later! This fuels the demand.

[P@blo]

You beat it lol

If I put a new cam in a pretty much stock 455 do you think I will net a 70 plus horsepower increase? It reminds me of when hot rod magazine did an article that put a BBC in a Chevette chassis and ran 10 seconds for under 5 grand. Project took about a week to complete. The people that pissed off was unreal as guys spent tens of thousands and were not going very fast.

[autobahn]

I'm sure that at least the 04-06 GTOs had LS 1 and LS2 in them so there for a Pontiac engine,the real sacrilege is putting a 403 in them My TA 78 has the orginal numbers matching engine , but got RID of the 4 speed and put a Tremic TKO a world of difference suppose that is bad also. PUT a Pontiac motor in my Camaro its out of a 06 GTO

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

New V8s, the twin overhead cam, 4 valve hemi in my Tundra would eat a "like" LS alive. .My 5700lb 4 wheel drive truck has ran a 14.56 stock, as is just let the rear tires down to 20 lbs. put it in drive and hit the gas. If there was no electronics between the gas pedal and the throttle the truck would shred the tires at the slightest tap of the foot.
That engine is out of the LS league.

Here ya go. This is a 2005 6.0 LQ4 I installed in a 72 4x4 blazer. It's bone stock down to the exhaust manifolds and 80K miles. Drive by wire, A/C etc... I put a 4L60E behind it, and it's running 33" tires no less with only 3.73 gears. Shaped like a brick and runs 14.30's in the mid 90's for mph. Almost finished the 1/4 mile in second gear as you can hear. Needed more gear. Weighs just over 5,000 lbs. without a driver. I didn't air down tires or even pop the hood. Just drove it in over 100 miles, no burnout, and raced it. This was also our daily driver for about 3 years. 22 mpg highway. This is me smoking a brand new 2010 SS Camaro. Just be glad you didn't run up against this in your tundra

https://youtu.be/msgSc3S-yHA

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Here ya go. This is a 2005 6.0 LQ4 I installed in a 72 4x4 blazer. It's bone stock down to the exhaust manifolds and 80K miles. Drive by wire, A/C etc... I put a 4L60E behind it, and it's running 33" tires no less with only 3.73 gears. Shaped like a brick and runs 14.30's in the mid 90's for mph. Almost finished the 1/4 mile in second gear as you can hear. Needed more gear. Weighs just over 5,000 lbs. without a driver. I didn't air down tires or even pop the hood. Just drove it in over 100 miles, no burnout, and raced it. This was also our daily driver for about 3 years. 22 mpg highway. This is me smoking a brand new 2010 SS Camaro. Just be glad you didn't run up against this in your tundra

https://youtu.be/msgSc3S-yHA

Put me at 5000lbs and you are dust. My truck is 5700lbs+. AND you are driving a 6.0 vs a 5.7
That LS is not even in the same league as a quad cam, 32 valve HEMI. The engine is a overbuilt beast.
I mean, a pushrod 2 valve engine will have better mid range and low end, but in the end can not keep up.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Put me at 5000lbs and you are dust. My truck is 5700lbs+. AND you are driving a 6.0 vs a 5.7
That LS is not even in the same league as a quad cam, 32 valve HEMI. The engine is a overbuilt beast.
I mean, a pushrod 2 valve engine will have better mid range and low end, but in the end can not keep up.

Excuses

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

My 5700lb 4 wheel drive truck has ran a 14.56 ...
... more than one new Camaro has slowed down to a 20mph roll and hit the gas next to me. By the time I am in 4th gear they are gone and do not want anymore.

Plenty of roadtests have newer Camaros turning high 13s, with a 3.6L six cylinder.